Cliff Doth 'Shake His Finger In The Presence Of God' Don L. Wood (Reply) (8-96)

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Cliff Doth
'Shake His Finger In
The Presence Of God'
(and catcheth flack
from servant of same)
Don L. Wood

See also: Don Wood's "Proof"

Introduction: Cliff Walker used the database of a popular online to search for atheists, and found several hundred member profiles which contained either the word atheist or the word atheism. The goal was to alert atheists to our web Page.
Many of the membership profiles contained the word atheist because the people were simply making cracks about that mythical "atheist in a foxhole." Other unoriginal quips imagined what's in the mind of atheists in various falling aircraft or wondered who atheists talk to during sex. Although Cliff wanted only to communicate with genuine atheists, he was not as careful as he should have been when weeding these others out. The following is an exchange between Cliff and Don L. Wood, who seems to think Clff's error is an omen of some sorts.
Wood eventually offers to prove theism to Cliff, and Cliff says he'd like to see it. Unfortunately, instead of proving anything, Wood proceeds to (erroneously) presuppose (again) what Cliffs views are; then, rather than knock those presupposed views over (straw-man, anyone?) Wood simply rails and concludes that to believe the way Wood thinks Cliff believes "is beyond ignorance -- to be blunt -- it is stupid..." -- without explaining why believing the way Wood thinks Cliff believes is thus.

Cliff's orignal spam:

I am writing to tell you about our exciting new Athieist / Separationist WEB Page.

I got your [e-mail address] by entering "atheist" or "atheism" in the [online service's member profile search engine]. I tried to weed out the many who made cracks about atheists in foxholes or atheists in falling aircraft; if you are one of those, I accidentally left your name on the list and I profusely apologize for the inconvenience.

We will be posting an extensive collection of pieces about Gora, Lavanam, and Atheism in India. I am having their "souvenier" book scanned, and am typesetting two of Lavanam's booklets: one, an autobiography; the other, two pieces about Mahatma Gandhi final days as a secularist. Also in the works are two of Gora's full-length books: "We Became Atheists" (completed) and "An Atheist with Gandhi" which inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. Atheists in America and Europe do well to look toward India for inspiration and leadership.

The Historial Writings index is growing by leaps and bounds, and the News section is constantly updated with stuff from various sources, including American Atheists.

Separationists: check out "Cliff Walker's 'Recovery Watch'" page which exposes the rampant abuses of religious freedom in the addiction treatment industry, the criminal justice system, and the recovery group movement (Alcoholics Anonymous, ad naus). You may like out "DARWIN Frog" pitch; our "Money Stamp" bit is rapidly gaining momentum as well.

Links for these items and much more are listed in our Main Index.

Thanks, and have a nice day!

Cliff Walker

Mr. Wood responds to the spam:

Dear Mr. Walker:

You found my name under "atheist" because under my profile I have a statement that reads "most people think atheists and theists have one thing in common. Neither one of them can prove their position. Wrong! A theist can!"

You see by using the Baconian Scientific Method (hopefully you studied about Francis Bacon of the 17th Century who is the father of modern science) one can pretty easily come to the knowledge that there is a God and that He can be known.

If you're interested in this write me again. If you are already convinced and don't want to be confused by objective facts, then don't bother me and take me off your mailing list.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Don L. Wood

Cliff's reply:

"If you're interested in this write me again. If you are already convinced and don't want to be confused by objective facts, then don't bother me and take me off your mailing list."

You presuppose several things -- including that I have a mailing list. I don't. This was a one-shot deal and the file with the names was emptied from the Windows 95 "Recycle Bin" before I went to bed that night. All I have now are replies unless I decide to do another tedious, hand-typed word-search on [the online service] in the future.

You can send me whatever proof you have of the existence of this "God" fellow which you and your associate, Mr. Bacon, insist can be proven. I'd like to take a look at it.

Cliff Walker

Mr. Wood offers his proof:

You can send me whatever proof you have of the existence of this "God" fellow which you and your associate, Mr. Bacon, insist can be proven. I'd like to take a look at it.

In my profile on [the OnLine service] I said something like "most people think the atheist and the theist have one thing in common. Neither can prove their position. Wrong! A theist can!"

That's true. A genuine theist can, and I mean by means no thinking person can deny. The "Mr. Bacon" I refer to is the "father of modern science." In fact there is no science today which has not benefited from his inductive reasoning process. No truth can escape the process, and of course it was around long before he identified it. He lived in the early 17th Century.

Now, in my 53 years I have found with very rare exception that atheists work so hard convincing themelves of their views that it becomes their religion! (Look the word "religion" up in a dictionary.) Sadly, it is the most illogical position one can claim, because no one can prove that there is no God whereas, as I have said, a genuine theist can prove God! In other words, I usually have very little difficulty getting an "atheist" to admit his grossly illogical stand, but with a quick adoption of the logical agnostic's stance he usually exhibits an attitude of "okay, I don't know whether there's a God because I cannot prove it, but I don't give a damn either. Don't bother me!"

Interestingly, this is the same individual who hates those that claim he is going to hell for disbelief. Why? I don't know any reason other than the one I offered: He is so driven by his atheistic religion that he is compelled to dogmatism no differently than the obviously pagan or supersticious fanatic. He believes it so passionately that no manner of logic (truth) can persuade him of his stupidity. (Please don't confuse me with the facts.)

Okay, that's harsh, but that's also the reality of it. If you're serious you would have to admit the irrationality of an atheists view, but I can only continue (with my very limited time) to continue with some one who is seriously in search of truth and not so passionate as to get to the "deep water" of truth and suddenly make for the deck saying "I don't want to discuss it any more." That's the same as "don't bother me!"

It might be bothersome to hear that a dam broke and that the valley is flooding, and that life can only be saved by seeking high ground, but if it is true one would be rotten to the core if he did not sound the alarm.

Remember this, my friend: (by the way, I've read the atheist's bible) the same Bible that warns of hell promises a heaven. If you are so sure there is no God then you should have no problem with those who believe in heaven. It is beyond ignorance -- to be blunt -- it is stupid to put off weighing the matter of an eternity with or without God when the question is really so obvious.

Serious enquiry would have to start at the beginning. Like any structure of belief, atheism not excluded, the foundation or the presupposition is where you find error. Inductive reasoning cannot exclude God, and the evidence to support His existence is so over whelming it is stupid or dogmatism or mysticism at its height not to admit it. Would one shake his finger in the presence of God and say "you do not exist!"

Sincerely,
Don L. Wood

Cliff's response:

Er, where's the beef -- proof?

I don't see any case here, only jumping up and down and veiled threats of hellfire.

And when did I ever state that I know there are no gods? (One cannot prove a negative existential claim.) My position has always been that I have yet to hear a claim for the existence of a god that holds water with me. This is why I asked you to send me your much-touted proof -- which, I guess, turns out to be a lot of hot air!

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