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From: "lisa stevens"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Friday, January 21, 2000 5:47 PM

Just want to say a few things,

I beleive in reasoning and logic. It is very logical to say that there is no way that this earth and everything on it was something that just happened. If you beleive in what is logical then do the logical thing and make sure that you are not being deceived and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to show you the truth. You must listen to everything that goes on around you and watch that you don't miss what the Lord is trying to tell you. Listen for the knock on the door and go open it to let Jesus in. Satan is real whether you beleive it or not. He will do anything to deceive you and will do it without you even knowing. Make sure you know the truth and don't let Satan have a victory over your soul.

Alan Stevens

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To:
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Friday, January 21, 2000 11:49 PM

What knock? What door? Explain.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

From: "Alan Stevens"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]
Date: Saturday, January 22, 2000 2:41 PM

Cliff,

The knock that you're listening for is Jesus knocking on the door to your heart and the way that you know he's knocking is when you feel something missing in your life. A lot of people don't hear the knock because they're not paying attention to what their heart tells them. God deals out a measure of faith to everyone and that faith is what lets you know that He exists even though there are many people that try to deny it. You should read Romans 1:18-23. Basically what it's saying is that proof of God exists all around us in creation. We, ourselves, are proof that He exists and is all powerful so there is no excuse to say that we just happened. If man really does exist from pure chance, what gives us our desire for happiness and the fulfillment of our dreams. Those are inessential emotions; things that we don't really need just to be able to survive so where do they come from? Those verses go on to say that men who glorify the creation rather than God profess to be wise but are fools. They change the glory of the incoruptable God into something that IS coruptable.

The only way to get to the Father is through Jesus. In John 8:42-47 Jesus is saying that if you were a child of God [Christian] then you would love Christ because He comes from God. And if you're not a child of God then you're a child of the devil and that causes you to commit sin. There is NO truth in Satan (he will, however use pieces of truth to deceive you); he is the father of lies. Because you're not a child of God, when Jesus tells you the truth, you don't believe Him. Someone who is of God will listen to Him when He speaks so if you don't listen to Him then you aren't of God.

BUT there is a way to know God if you don't and that is that when Jesus is knocking, to let Him into your heart. All you have to do is confess Him as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. (Romans 10:9) When you repent of your sins (admit that you're a sinner just like ALL men--Romans 3:23) then you'll be forgiven. That is all that it takes to let Him in your heart.

Alan Stevens

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Alan Stevens"
Subject: Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]
Date: Saturday, January 22, 2000 8:46 PM

The knock that you're listening for is Jesus knocking on the door to your heart and the way that you know he's knocking is when you feel something missing in your life.

What if that "something missing" is Mom?

I'll tell you what: I was an Evangelical Christian once, and now realize that my emotions will never be entirely intact, and that I will always be reaching out for -- whatever. This, I think, is normal, healthy human experience; if I didn't feel this way, I would think something is wrong with me (that, perhaps, I had joined a cult or have become addicted to drugs or something of that nature). I have taken drugs and know what it is like not to have this feeling (although the cults -- including the cult of Evangelical Christianity -- were never powerful enough to arrest this feeling of longing).

Actually, I feel more "complete" now that I have abandoned Christianity, now that I have decided to live my life the way I see fit (and not the way somebody else thinks I should run my life), now that I take full responsibility for my actions, now that I have learned to be happy with myself as my only companion (if need be).

Sometimes it gets lonely -- fiercely lonely. I have spent the past four months going to these two bars that are owned by the same fellow. I don't drink, but I love to sing, and both bars offer karaoke. I have a large collection of my own karaoke CDs and like to bring them in rather than sing what is usually at the bars. Well, guess what? The owner was talked into not allowing people to bring their own CDs to play. (I refuse to cave in and go with the flow on this one; there are many other places that allow you to bring your own CDs and I will start afresh at one of these places.)

Now the entire social situation that I have built for the past several months is gone! After about a week of coping with depression and loneliness and the feelings of betrayal, I am ready, once again, to find other situations in which to meet people. The investments I made in meeting people are not in vain, because I can keep the social skills I learned (and -- I am a little bit wiser to the wiles of some humans).

But yes, something is missing from my life right now: my entire social group is suddenly gone and I am alone.

I now must ask you to demonstrate to me, from this feeling that I have (that you accurately describe) the following: (1) that a god exists; (2) that that god is the Jesus you describe; (3) that this Jesus you describe is "knocking" at the "door" to my "heart." How does the one inevitably lead to the conclusion you present? (Be sure to show your work.)
 

You should read Romans 1:18-23. Basically what it's saying is that proof of God exists all around us in creation.

You should listen to me. Mine is the final word on what I believe and what I know -- not some ancient scroll whose credibility is hotly disputed.

I will tell you in all honesty what I believe and what I know and what I see: When I look at my environment (what you, prematurely, for this discussion, call "creation"), I see no evidence for the existence of any beings that answer to your description of "God." (I don't see a "God" even when I am looking for such a being and even during those times when I have wanted for there to be such a being!)

Some Christians cite Romans 1:18-24 in order to denigrate atheists and to misrepresent what we see when we open our eyes. To say that we all know, deep down, that a "God" exists, is pure bigotry on the part of the Christians who do this to us atheists. In our Letters section, I have extensively discussed this common practice.
 

There is NO truth in Satan (he will, however use pieces of truth to deceive you); he is the father of lies.

Can you demonstrate to me that this "Satan" character (of which you speak) has not deceived you? In other words, how do you know that you are not following "another gospel" such as is described in Galatians?

How do you know Paul himself was telling the truth, seeing how he disagreed so vehemently with Peter -- as is admitted in Galatians 2? How do you know that the "truth" settled upon Paul's followers, and that it did not die off in Jerusalem when she was wiped out by Titus in C.E. 66-70 and C.E. 132? How do you know that the "truth" that survived is the real one, and that the "truth" that died off with its messengers was falsehood?

Have you ever studied the claims of the Ebionites? They maintained to have been the original followers of Jesus, that Paul was a charlatan and an opportunist, and that Jesus was not a god but a man whose goal was to save his country from Roman tyranny. This is not a story that would have survived unless the Judaeans had prevailed over the Romans. The Romans, it turned out, prevailed, and this version died off in favor of the Gospel we have today (which, by the way, offers nothing but praise for the Roman characters and has nothing good to say about Jewish loyalists).

One saying that is attributed to Christ (but which is much more ancient than the times of Christ) is, "By their fruits shall you know them." Whether any "Christ" said this, I cannot say; however, I agree with the interpretation that says that a moral philosophy is useless if it does not inspire people to be more moral than they ordinarily would be.

Christians, throughout history, have been cruel beyond imagination. We are not talking about Mencken's "off-duty" Christians (sitting in their homes and feeding their families), but the Christians who are actively stumping for Christianity (the preachers, the priests, the missionaries, and the Christian-based governments enforcing Christianity as the state religion). The Christians who have answered the so-called Great Commission have been frightfully cruel throughout history; when Christianity has been the officially enforced state religion, human progress has gone backwards and human misery has reigned and the stench of premature death has filled the air.

The zeal to obey "The Great Commission" has produced: the witch hunts; the Inquisition; the destruction of science in Europe and elsewhere; the enslavement of African humans; subordination of women; the degradation and slaughter of homosexuals, infidels, and the mentally ill (and this indignity continues in one form or another even today; it is even hinted at in your letter to me, with your Romans comment). This one fact is more than reason enough for me to reject Christianity out of hand: I need look no further than this to be satisfied that I have made a wise decision in rejecting Christianity (and even in denouncing it). The Christian religion cannot be anything but falsehood. If there was such thing as a "Satan" I would accuse him of inventing Christianity.

You have a long way to go before you even approach my objections to the "God" idea. Even if you can get me to come over to your side on the "God" issue, you still have a monumental up-hill battle in answering my objections to the Christian religion. I am not telling you that I am closed to your claims (although I have heard the same rhetoric thousands of times); I am saying that you must first get beyond my objections to the existence of "God in general" and then, after that, you have the task of getting beyond my numerous (and fierce) objections to the Christian religion -- starting with the validity of the Bible message and the historicity of Jesus.

In other words, you have made your claim, but you have not made your case. Your claim is just that: a claim.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

From: "Alan Stevens"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]]
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 3:21 PM

Hey Cliff,

It is good to hear from you again. I just want to say first off that I am glad that you are willing to hear what I have to say.

You know that every one is reaching out for something. I am reaching out to have a closer relationship with Jesus. You say that you were an Evangelical Christian once, well either you never were to begin with or you were spiritually hurt by someone or something and now want to deny what you once beleived in. If you truly were at one time then you wouldn't be able to deny that Jesus ever existed. It is very difficult to tell someone about something that you haven't ever seen but have only felt. I want to tell you about an experience I had when the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ touched my soul. I was attending church one night for a revival. The minister that was preaching called for people to go to the front if they needed God to do something in there life. I was afraid to go up there because I don't like to get up in front of a bunch of people. But something kept pushing me and it was like my spirit was telling me to go. I realize now that it was not my spirit but the spirit of Jesus in me. I went up there not knowing what was going to happen. The minister came over there and put his hand on my shoulder and prayed for me. I don't even remember what he said but I remember what I felt. I was standing there with my eyes closed and I began to feel very relaxed and I fell to the floor like I was sleeping except I new what was going on around me. I probably could have gotten back up but I did not want to. I had so much peace and I could feel my heart beating very fast as if I had been ruunning. My head felt like it was glowing and I just wanted to praise the Lord for what I felt. I thought about that for a very long time and soon realized that the Lord was showing me how real he was and just wanted me to be prepared for what he wanted me to do. I have expereinced this, what ever it may be, three times now and I know without doubt that Jesus Christ is real. I now am involved in talking to homless people on the streets. This is not something that I was wanting to do. I was just wanting to live my life and not mess with it. I did this anyways because I knew it was the Lords work. I could'nt really care for these people on my own. It is the love of God in me. If it wasn't for Jesus I wouldn't even give these people food as I walk by. This is how I know that Jesus is real. I know that you want physical proof and I think it is possible for you to get it. I will do what I can to give you information. I don't know the answer to everything but Jesus Christ does. I rely on him to give me Information and I know that most of the stuff I have told you has come from Him.

You are right, reaching out for -- whatever, is normal. What everyone has to do is find what they are looking for. I don't expect you to beleive me all though I hope you do, but I hope that you will see that this reaching out trying to find what your life is missing is the Lord Jesus calling you. The reason I beleive this is because in my past I have not always been following the path that leds to God. I just basically did what I wanted and ended up causing trouble for my self. Christianity is not a way of living to keep the world a safe place. God set rules for us to live by so that we wouldn't end up hurting ourselves or others. God also wants us to love him. The reason I love God is because He first loved me.

You mentioned about Christianity being cruel. Mankind is cruel. You can not have a true relation ship with God by doing what other people say is the Christian thing to do. I live by the Bible not by what men tell me at Church. The only way to know that the Bible is true is to read it, examine the contents of it, Ask God for understanding of it and live by it. Then you can see that it is the guide to a perfect relationship with Jesus. If you want to know about different things that the bible teaches and what to follow read the teachings of Christ. Because when Jesus came He had to show people how God wanted them to live so people wouldn't change the words of God to fit their lifestyle.

The feeling you have of being lonely comes from expecting people to always be there when people always will forget about you and your feelings at sometime or another. Jesus Christ will always be there for you if you let Him. He will not try to keep you from doing things wrong or from making the wrong decision. The reason is because He wants you to love Him on your own free will. If he forces someone to do the right thing it is not love. I do not have any friends that I do things with except go to Church. But I go to church for God not my friends. All I have outside of church is Jesus. He is sufficient for me though because he takes all of my troubles from me and I know that when something comes against me that I have nothing to fear.

I have to tell you I know that satan has not deceived me in what I beleive. IF he has I would not have had the experience with God that I have had. But I have to admit that he has deceived me in many other ways that cause me to follow him instead of what I know to be the truth. I have to say though that even though I have messed up and sinned agianst God many times almost every day, God still forgives me.

That lonely feeling that you have is from not being with Christ. You have left Christ and given up on Him. Christ said that if you except him then He will never leave you nor forsake you. If you ever have asked Christ to forgive you of your sins then He is right where you left Him. Jesus will let you choose your path He will not try to stop you. He will wait for you to come back to Him. Always remember that He will always be there if you decide to go back to Him.

I follow what the Bible teaches and like alot of people say the bible is written by men. I do know that the Bible has many things in it that have happened and many things in will happen. I have done some studies on the Bible and other history writtings. The Bible talks about the Great Flood that happened. Many other History books talk about the Deluge that destoyed everything. Deluge means to destroy with water. In sunday school we discussed certain things in the Bible (maybe I can get some information for you) such as Israel becoming a Nation again. The Teacher showed us about the bible saying when Israel would become a nation. Israel became a nation again in 1968 well after the Bible was written. There are many other things that the bible says will happen such as the world forming a one world government and the Antichrist deceiving many people. I want to say if you here talks of people claiming to be Jesus as doing wonderfull things don't beleive it because Jesus will not be returning to walk on the earth again until the Revelation of Christ is fulfilled. The bible talks about many sign such as earthquakes and wars and many other things. Did you know that in the past few years there has been more earthquakes than ever before? The bible says that these are the signs that tell us the times of the end are near. We must be ready because when the rapture of the church happens it will come like a thief in the night. once it happens then maybe you will beleive. I hope for your sake that you beleive before then.

You mentioned about what I said that everyone knows that there has to be a Creator. How can you deny that feeling if at one time you were directed to Christianity? Why do you ask me if I know that satan has not deceived me? Why would satan want me to beleive in God and in Jesus Christ, the son of God who died on the cross for all men? If God is not real wouldn't satan want me to worship satan as a god? I don't understand why you try to use scripture in the bible against me if you don't beleive in it. If the Bible says not to let yourself be deceived by fake doctrine why would that make me think that the bible is deceiving? (I think that is how I wanted to say that.)

You mention Paul and Peter having a disagreement. They did not have a disagreement. In Acts Paul was told by Jesus what he must do to spread the gospel. Peter was told the same. Many Jews thought that it was wrong to eat or have any thing to do with the Gentiles(anyone that was not Jewish). Jesus made it clear to Paul and Peter that all men were excepted by God. The reason Paul rebuked Peter is because Peter did what the Lord told him but when the Jews came he would stay away and leave them to beleive that he had nothing to do with the gentiles. It is like when you were in school. There were certain people that would be friends with other people until the popular people came along. Then they would pick on the people that they were friends with to impress the popular people. The difference in Peters case is he did it out of fear of being killed by the Jews that did not know Gods entire plan. The Ebionites were right to say that Jesus was a man. He was a man while on this earth. He died for our sins, was raised again three days later and now sits on the right side of God.

The saying "by their fruits shall you know them" is of Christ. Christ is everlasting and has always been. Before he came to be a man He was in heaven with the Father. this saying is in the bible many times. Prov. 11:30, Prov.18:20, Is.3:10, Jer 17:10, and so on to the New testament. This is saying that you will know a Christian by their works. We should not judge people but we should judge their works. As a Christian if I see another Christian say some thing or do something wrong I should go to them and tell them so that they should not lead someone away from Christ.

Satan invented deception through misinterpretation of the Bible and through people claiming to be Christians but don't lead a Christian life such as preachers who preach jusst to make money.

I would bet that if Christianity allowed someone to do whatever they wanted to do whether it were to steal or to do drugs or have sex without marriage then every one in the world that don't beleive in Christ would want to be a Christian and beleive in Christ. So many people deny Jesus because they don't want to admit that they are living an unholy life. I tell you I would rather do the right thing than to burn eternally in hell.

This world has been destroyed by sin and men that sin. Christianity can not fix peoples problems or their pain. Only Jesus Christ can take that away.

Satan has deceived many. The only thing that I can tell you that you will know is the truth is to read the Bible and watch and when all of the things in the Bible are fulfilled then you will know the truth. I just hope you see the truth before it is to late.

I hope to hear from you again.

I will soon have a web page finished as soon as it is finished I will let you know. later.

your friend Alan,

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Alan Stevens"
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]]
Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 2:27 PM

You say that you were an Evangelical Christian once, well either you never were to begin with or you were spiritually hurt by someone or something and now want to deny what you once beleived in.

This reply is typical of fundamentalistic thinking, and typical of someone who wasn't there and who doesn't know the facts. Here is fundamentalism: either I did something wrong, or someone else did something wrong -- but Christianity can do no wrong. That is the essence of fundamentalistic thinking; I should know because I was a fundamentalist (Evangelical) Christian once.

More importantly, I am deeply offended that you would be so flippant on a subject that has caused me untold grief and over an incident that has caused me permanent damage. Still more crucial than that is that you would so casually dismiss what I have discovered to be the truth about the Christian Bible: it is myth, the word of no god, and it is not to be trusted.

I left the church upon discovering that the Bible is falsehood and that the central figures of the Bible -- Jesus, Moses, Jehovah -- are mythological, and not historical. If anybody or anything can be said to have hurt me, it was the Bible and its message. I talked myself into believing it to the point of knowing it could withstand any scrutiny I could muster (after all, I told myself, it's the Word of God). I wanted deeply for the Bible to be true because my very life depended on it being true (or so I thought). Well, it didn't withstand very much scrutiny. Once I finished the Josh McDowell books and moved on to some bona fide apologetics, the whole thing unraveled before my very eyes. So did my life, because my entire life was caught up in the Bible and in Christianity. I refused to continue preaching or even practicing what I then knew to be a lie -- the monumental lie of all history.

This was a tough decision for me to make, because I not only lost my entire world view and my entire social structure, I lost my God. God Himself had failed me -- by turning out to have been fiction, a figment of my imagination.

Upon making the decision to leave, I had to spend years working toward adjusting to my new world-view. There are many help programs to help you adjust to converting to Christianity, but there are no help programs to help you adjust to leaving the church. I was alone: friendless and with few social skills beyond what I had taught myself in Church. Again, I am deeply hurt that you would marginalize what may have been the most painful and traumatic experience of my life.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

From: "Alan Stevens"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]]]
Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 4:48 PM

Hey Cliff,

I am sorry if I offended you by my comment. I said it because I knew it had to be true. You keep on asking me to prove the bible is the truth. It is very difficult to prove something to someone who doesn't want to listen. The bible says that people that don't want to beleive the word of God will not beable to understand the bible. It also says that the more a person denies it, the harder their herat becomes and the harder it is to beleive in it. Your problem that you had as a christian was lack of faith. You can deny God and deny Jesus, but that does not change the fact that He is real. You can't disprove the bible. You can't disprove your history book in school, so you take it to be true. The thing is that your history book has places in it where it contradicts its self. You can't find any contradictions in the bible. If you think you have let me know and I will explain what you have found. To be a christian you have to live by what the bible says. You can't change it around to fit your life. You have to change to fit the word of God. You may not beleive in the bible, or God, but you can't explain the experience that I had with God, if you could I am sure you would have tried to find something to explain it that wasn't according to the word of God. When you think that you have think again because you know that you are just guessing. Quit trying to find an excuse not to live according to the bible. I have tried it in my past. It doesn't work and that is why you are hurting yourself now. If you will listen to your heart you will feel the Holy Spirit of God drawing you to Him. Don't convince yourself that God does not exist. You have no prove that the bible is fake. I am sure that you will tell me that you have heard that before. Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you hear the same things about this is because it is true? Don't beleive in the bible because I say it is true, study it, find out for yourself that it is true. If you don't find out the truth now, you might find out too late. I don't want you to think that I am trying to insult you or anything else. I just want to make sure that you have a chance to save yourself. God does not send anyone to hell, they send themselves. Think about why you once beleived in God and find the truth in what you beleived. Think about how this world could ever be possible if there was not a God. The theory that the world just happened does not make since. certain scientist say that life was created by matter and energy. We have matter and energy all around us. We don't see organisms just apprearing all around us. I know that seems ignorant but that is basically what it would be like if this theory were true. Everything si made up of matter, but not everything is alive. We have to view ourselves as machines. When you see an object such as a computer chip you know that it is created. Even when you were a child you knew that this object was made. You might not have seen it made or seen who made it but you knew it was made by what you saw. You don't have any proof but what someone tells you or by what you have read. So prove to me that this object was created. Think about an object that you don't know how it came about and prove that it did. How about these things that have been dug up by people that claim that they were from ancient people, prove that they were created with out using written documents or anything that someone has written our said. Don't let your heart be so hardened by your mind that you don't want to understand. Someone that has stolen from someone feels bad about it at first, but when they do it over and over their heart hardens and it doesn't affect them anymore. God loves you and wants to help you but you have to let Him. I know that you probably did not want to hear me say that but it is the truth.

Hope to hear from you again.

Alan Stevens,

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Alan Stevens"
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section]]]
Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 7:40 PM

I am sorry if I offended you by my comment. I said it because I knew it had to be true.

The fact that what you said about me is falsehood (and I should know better about my motives than anyone) is what is so offensive about your comment.

Like I said, fundamentalism says that the revered dogma "has to be true" -- regardless of anything that may or may not actually be true.
 

It is very difficult to prove something to someone who doesn't want to listen.

By assuming that I don't want to listen, you continue your fundamentalistic theme and ensnare yourself into further falsehood. If I did not want to listen, I wouldn't entertain questions from theists; the statement on our front page would state that this website is exclusively for the benefit of atheists. While I don't enjoy receiving the same abuse from theists -- letter after letter of it -- my official position is that I am open to hearing a new argument for the existence of God and for the validity of the Bible. This separates me from many atheists who are just as fundamentalistic in their atheism as you appear to be in your Christianity.

Again, I know more about my motives than you do, and you offend in presupposing things about my motives and then proceeding to argue against your presupposition. You do well, instead, to discover my actual position and to argue against that position.

My position is this: I have yet to encounter an argument for the existence of God that holds water. I have yet to encounter an argument for the validity of the Bible that I find convincing. Since I am making no claim (such as, "God exists" or "the Bible is true"), then I have no obligation to back up my claim. I need merely listen. The one making the claim is obligated to back up the claim, or I don't have to believe the claim.

I have read the Bible many times (perhaps more times than you have; certainly more times than the vast majority of Christians have). I have weighed it and it is found wanting. That does not mean I am closed to the matter, but that Bible apologists have a monumental task before them if they are to bring credibility to the Bible in an atmosphere of critical inquiry.

Thus, if, in dealing with me, you wish to base your arguments on the Bible, you must first bring credibility to the Bible in my eyes: the Bible must withstand the criticism I have against it. Simply telling me that "the Bible says such and so" won't work because I have no reason to believe that the Bible is a book of truth.
 

The bible says that people that don't want to beleive the word of God will not beable to understand the bible. It also says that the more a person denies it, the harder their herat becomes and the harder it is to beleive in it.

This reasoning goes beyond simple fundamentalism and enters the realm of the cultic, of full-blown brainwashing techniques.

It is also the classic example of Circular Reasoning found in so many introductory books on logic and reasoning: The Bible is the word of God because God says it in the Bible, which is the word of God. And around and around.

Meanwhile, if God wants me to believe, and if God can show me (or even open my mind to see), then why do I remain unconvinced? Why do so many remain unconvinced? (There are more atheists and nontheists than there are Roman Catholics or non-Catholic Christians or Muslims.) Why do we insist that we see no reason to believe in God? How could the number of non-Christians be so great if God can enable us to see, and if God wants us to see?
 

You can't find any contradictions in the bible.

Sure I can. Not only that, but the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians acknowledge that the Bible contradicts itself and also contradicts reality.

C. Dennis McKinsey has written an entire Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy. Have you answered all the objections McKinsey has raised? (Can you answer any of them? I can answer some of them, but most of them are rock solid and I doubt they can be answered. My proof of this is the fact that the newest translation, the New International Version, has deliberately altered the text in order to cover up many of the problems raised by McKinsey and others.)

Better yet, can you answer the objection that initially baffled me? (I did not get this one from McKinsey; I have seen nobody else expound on it as a Bible problem.) It is what I have since called "The Fig Tree Enigma" and is posted in the collection of Cliff's writings, and is reiterated in our National Bible Week Poster -- both of which are linked from our front page. Please answer the objections raised in the Fig Tree Enigma before you continue your abusive tone.

Quit trying to find an excuse not to live according to the bible.

Any more outbursts like this and I will ask you to stop writing. I've been very patient with you.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

From: "terry stevens"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Saturday, July 08, 2000 9:37 AM

I sent mail to you a year or so ago and we had many discussions. I asked you if you would put some of these letters on your web site. I can't find them. That was a lot of writing. I don't know if I can remember everything I wrote. I guess you couldn't think of any good arguements to come back with. I guess this being athiest is going good for you so you will stick with it for a while. Satan is a deciever isn't he. And don't try to come back with how do you know he is not decieving you. You already tried that. Satan would not decieve someone by believing in God, but by twisting the word of God to fit their own wants.

God bless,

Alan Stevens

From: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To:
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Saturday, July 08, 2000 3:25 PM

Here it is:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9622.htm

This one was like watching a Mexican and a Chinese arguing with each other in their own respective languages.

You refused to address my questions and continued making assumptions about me even though I pointed out that your assumptions were wrong.

Your replies consisted of long block paragraphs of the same biblical drivel that I get day after day from Fundamentalist Christians who log onto a website that clearly states that its target audience is atheists, but who want to try to "set us straight" anyway. I've heard this stuff for years (and even spouted some of it myself as a confused young adult) and I already know what I think about it.

Most frustrating is the thinking style that goes along with the Fundamentalist Christian outlook. I have trained myself in how to think and am saddened that someone could waste their mind by memorizing rhetoric and defending an absolutistic dogma rather than learning to think through any given situation and learning to discuss an opposing viewpoint. Oh well. It's not my life so I cannot get too bugged about what you do to yourself, can I?

Finally, you were patently dishonest about this whole thing, accusing me of thinking a certain way (simply because an obscure Bible verse, when interpreted by a certain sect, appears to say that all people think this way). You refused to let me state what is on my mind and what I believe and how I see things, even though mine if the final word on that matter.

I was on the verge of blocking your e-mail address from our domain when the "conversation" (thankfully) ended.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

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