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How To Address People
Of Religious Prominence?
Gregory Tinker

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Gregory Tinker"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:26 PM

Here's a question for you (or others, if they are so inclined);

How, as an atheist, do you address people of religious prominence?

My stance is moving towards not using terms such as "reverend/father/brother/elder/pastor so-and-so", as these terms imply (to me) a degree of knowledge or ascendency that I just do not see as having any basis in reality. E.g. "you are not my father/brother/whatever, and you certainly are not revered by me!"

On the other hand, I still see the point of using titles in the context of someone's profession, no matter what I might think of it. For example, my official title in 3 years- if all goes well- will be "doctor". Others may disagree with the point of calling me by such, as they might not see any value in having a Ph.D. in the sciences. However, I would be mildly surprised to find anyone actually go out of their way to continue addressing me as "Mr" even though they might know better.

And in addition, what would the "Positive Atheism" edict demand that one do?

Greg

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Dan & Marquerite Johnson"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: family terminology
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 9:13 PM

In Elizabethan Englant it seems lots of unrelated people called each other "cousin." Since we are all in the one human family I don't ming being called brother, and I can call almost anyone sister or brother if the situation calls for it. I wept when Martin Luther King Jr. was killed because to me he was a brother.

I can't quite call someone Mother or Father simply because people in their sect do so.

I recall a comment my father, a Lutheran minister, would make when he was wearing his clerical collar and someone would call him "Father," Dad would say, "I'm no father. I have five children at home."

Dan Johnson

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Balsom-Heiser Family"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: FORUM_How_To_Address_People_Of_Religious_Prominence_9555
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 7:40 PM

Greg,

I believe in recognizing people by the titles they have earned.

Just because I have a fundamental disagreement with a person's philosophy doesn't mean I should hold their dedication, determination, or sacrifice in contempt. Using a title does not infer subservience on my part, but extends courtesy when I take the time to recognize their personal achievements.

I'm a member of the armed forces and am fortunate to have attained the rank of Master Sergeant. I'm addressed daily as "Sergeant" by people that have different philosophies, social status, and agendas than myself.

If you used "Sergeant" to address me, it wouldn't imply that you supported or endorsed me. It would simply acknowledge my personal achievements in a neutral manner.

Caveat: Don't confuse titles with terms of endearment such as "Sarge."

When I'm addressed as "Sarge", I must decipher the hidden message. "Sarge" implies respect when spoken by a subordinate; disrespect when used by a peer; endorsement when it comes from superior; brotherhood when it comes from a veteran; and suspicious when uttered by a car salesman.

When you use a term of endearment, you communicate something more than just acknowledgment of achievement. I recommend Atheists avoid using terms of endearment to address persons of religious prominence since it would probably be a regarded as a provocation.

Randy Balsom
www.usafbuttcrack.com

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From:
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Forum Questions; Lifetime Subscription Offer
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 4:38 PM

In response to the question whether any of your fellow atheists have a problem with addressing a religious leader as "father", "reverend", or "brother". I have NO problem addressing a fellow human being as "father", "reverend", or "brother". I would hope they would, in turn, have no problem respecting my right to NOT believe as they do by not "preaching" to me.

Although this maybe a big assumption on my part, I do believe there are some lessons taught to us as children that should apply to everyone ie. "treat others as you would want to be treated". I don't care where the concept of common courtesy came from, to me it's just good common sense. "Respect" as Webster defines it is "an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION." I believe "consideration" to be the key word. If we all showed a little more "respect" and "consideration" for one another's beliefs and every individual's right to those beliefs, whatever they maybe, I believe our world would be better for it. Let's not forget that if we want others to accept our beliefs we should accept theirs also.

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

Cliff Responds:

I wouldn't go so far as to accept others' beliefs (I don't expect anyone to accept mine), but I will honor them by presuming that they have valid reasons for believing the way they do.

The only exception would be if the person is lying, telling us she or he believes a certain way but does not. I also have a tough time with those who are adamant about their beliefs (in your face about it) but it turns out that the person in question has done little toward examining the views she or he expects others to go along with.

But with these other situations, who am I to judge? How can I really know what's going on inside someone's mind? so I must use caution and give the benefit of the doubt when I have my doubts about another person's doubts. As such, I do well to take self-reports of others' beliefs at face value, which leads back to presuming that they trust their own reasons for believing the way they do (or disbelieving, as the case may be).

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Art Haykin"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: FORUM_How_To_Address_People_Of_Religious_Prominence_9555
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:20 PM

"Sir" or "ma'am" should suffice.

"Rabbi," by the way, simply means "teacher."

I kinda like "Skypilot."

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

Cliff Replies:

I kinda like "Skypilot."

Like that song from Eric Burdon and The Animals that we reprinted in the March, 2000, issue? Not a term of endearment, here:

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

Art Responds:

I remember "Sky Pilot" from that old WWII song where the Chaplain on a destroyer took over the anti-aircraft gun and yelled, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

It's supposed to be based on an actual incident.

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Ford Family"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Forum Questions; Lifetime Subscription Offer
Date: Friday, August 11, 2000 1:57 AM

This has happened to me on several occasions, my method has been to use their title, but I do make it quite clear to them that I am an atheist, and I do point out that I am a strong atheist, I believe due to the emphasis I place on the word strong, I get their respect, and no questioning is pursued.

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: Conrad Goeringer
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Fw: AANEWS for Wednesday, August 9, 2000
Date: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:51 AM

As for addressing religious persons, how 'bout "Hey you"?

Conrad

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

Added: February 5, 2002

From: "John F. Hirling" <Skypilot@ev1.net>
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Sent: February 05, 2002 9:55 AM
Subject: FORUM_How_To_Address_People_Of_Religious_Prominence_9555

Personnally, I prefer John.

I've found it fascinating over the years that some people sense a need to address clerics with an honorific and that some clerics find the need to request or even demand them. I have some affinity for the use of Dr. where the degree exists but, again personally, I only ask that it be used in writings where everyone's educational honorifics are used.

Long ago, I was a practicing attorney. One of our judges demanded that we all address each other as 'doctor.' It was one of the most ridiculous exercises ever required of me. I have a M.Div (and some other alphabet soup) and am actively engaged in vocational ministry as solo pastor of a Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). As a person who believes that all of us humans are 1) children of a divine creator, 2) that we all fall short of perfection, and 3) that all people are called to ministries in and for the world (please take ministry as a theologically neutral term), I'm concerned when honorifics divide us.

Clearly, I have no problem with the term 'skypilot' but I wouldn't want to be addressed that way any more than I would like to be addressed Reverend.

John F. Hirling
Oaks Presbyterian Church
Houston, Texas
skypilot@ev1.net

p.s.

I've listened to the lyrics from "Skypilot" several times lately and I'm not convinced the term was meant to be derogatory. My sense is that the lyrics express the frustration of trying to be of spiritual benefit in an ungodly situation.

jfh

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "John F. Hirling" <Skypilot@ev1.net>
Subject: Re: FORUM_How_To_Address_People_Of_Religious_Prominence_9555
Date: February 05, 2002 2:44 PM

Hear, hear!

I'm way backlogged, but I'll get this posted and into the discussion as soon as I can. But as my (atheistic) Grandmother used to tell me,

Or maybe it was a sign in her kitchen. I only remember hearing her say that all the time, so it probably was a sign. In any event, I think it's a good thing to keep this saying in mind whenever your situation gets like mine.

What the Hell? I'll post it now! I can make the file look prettier while I'm at it!

Oh, and didn't I get that botched lyric in Eric Burdon's "Sky Pilot" right? It finally came out on karaoke last year: the version sucks because the kept in three minutes worth of guns and airplanes and bombs, but left off that incredible final two-verse stanza! But at least it's singable and that's what's important. And when the second "Sky-y-y Pilot" in the final refrain (of the short version) comes around, I thrust the middle-right finger of my right hand proudly and defiantly into the air and sing it like it has some meaning!

And I'd do that whether or not the term "Sky Pilot" is considered derogatory, because it's not the Sky Pilot himself that I'm gesturing, as much as the whole concept of war and why we even need to go to war. I also comment, at the beginning of the song, that the war effort uses -- exploits -- the Sky Pilot for the purpose of filling the minds of our boys with visions of the afterlife, a cosmic sense of duty, and a false sense of justice.

I've noticed that hardly anybody from my generation knows what the term "Sky Pilot" means in that song. Even fewer recognize that Burdon, et al, are portraying the Sky Pilot as collaborating with the war effort rather than being on the side of the soldier (like he's supposed to be), that is, being an advocate for the boys who don't want to be there, who don't really know why they're there (who didn't know the truth about why they were in Vietnam), and, most importantly, don't know if they'll ever get to go home.

I will mention that in an upcoming print edition, we're featuring a piece supporting the notion of the miliary Chaplain.

Oh, and in spell-checking this letter, I notice that "religous" is misspelled in the link code to that Forum file. I'll get right on it! Thanks to Dreamweaver's global search and replace, I won't even need to open the file and I'll have fixed all occurrences of that error with a single mouse click. But actually, that will be a good enough excuse to go ahead and post this letter anyway!

Thanks for your thoughts!

Cliff Walker
Positive Atheism Magazine
Six years of service to
     people with no reason to believe

• Answer This Question: How To Address People Of Religious Prominence?

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