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• Reference: Let's Go To The Atheist Page Just For Laughs Rich Zawadzki
• Perspective: Ethics & the Æsthetic of Satan by Cliff Walker

From: "dev1"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Let's go to the atheist page just for laughs
Date: Saturday, January 13, 2001 3:57 AM

Dear Mr. Walker,

I have recently printed and read the letters from Rich Zawadzki, and your response to them from your website. Firstly I would like to share with you my puzzlement over a statement you made in reply to his second letter, you wrote:

"The only atheists I know who would snicker upon encountering you might be the one or two Satanists who would consider your being a fundamentalist Christian to be an even more fitting curse than even they could conjure!"

I found this statement puzzling and somewhat disconcerting. I am an atheist, and although I do not have firsthand knowledge of Satanism, I have always been under the impression that its practitioners were theists. If I am not mistaken they contend for the deity of Lucifer (Which means morning star, and is mentioned only once in the Christian bible, even though the context refers to a ruler of Babylon) over Yahweh.

The part that concerns me most is that I can imagine a Christian reading (and misinterpreting) that statement and thinking something in the line of:

"Just as I thought, atheists are just Satanists in disguise"

I realize that this is not what you wrote, but it has been my experience that Christians often read what they want to read from a statement. I have often been accused of Satanism after someone learns of my atheism; I have also been subjected to the ludicrous question "Are you atheist or Antichrist?"

I often have to patiently explain, with varying levels of success, that atheism is the absence of belief in gods, or (as is my position) the belief in the absence (nonexistence) of gods.

While I do not hold Satanism as any more or less abhorrent than any other superstition, I do feel that some Christians will try and hold this up as "evidence".

The rest of your replies closely reflected my own feelings.

I would like to share with you my most recent experience of Christian love and tolerance. The abovementioned letter and replies share more than just a common experience with my story; it was in fact a key element in the story.

I share a printer with several co-workers, this printer happens to be located in the office next to mine --the office of a loving Christian. I often browse the Internet after work, and print material from interesting websites to read it at home. As mentioned previously I have printed this letter, along with some more articles from your and other sites, for later reading.

I only realized that I forgot to take the printouts halfway on my way home. The next morning I went into my co-workers office, and not finding the printouts I asked her whether she knows where they where. She denied any knowledge of their existence.

This morning I went to see the IT manager (a Christian) about some revisions I was planning to make to the software I am working on. At the end of the meeting he handed me an envelope containing the very same material that magically disappeared the previous day; with the stern warning that I was inviting trouble by printing such material, and that I was jeopardizing my Internet privileges.

I subsequently found out, from a co-worker and friend, that the very same Christian co-worker, who denied seeing the printouts, wasted no time in taking the material to her boss (I am a consultant, and he is my client), on the way showing it to my abovementioned friend with gleefully commenting "I wont judge him, because I know he is going to hell".

She and others have often proselytized to me, even though I have never returned this lack of courtesy. I have always been friendly towards her, yet I now find myself without Internet privileges. Of course the official reason for this is "abuse of privileges", an allegation that is difficult to defend seeing that the material is considered personal.

The irony in the whole story is that I am one of the few people that did not make a fuss when she sent out her tracts via email, I guess it's because I enjoy a good laugh now and again :-), and that the person she sought to share her condemnation with is the only other person in the company that I know to be an atheist. I also now know that she hasn't the faintest idea what the words "to judge" mean.

Thank you for your website, and the information you share with others, the whole experience has just reaffirmed my repugnance towards theism.

Gratefully yours,

Andre H. Artus

PS

I've heard it said that "no true Christian ever lies", there can't be too many of them then.

From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "dev1"
Subject: Re: Let's go to the atheist page just for laughs
Date: Saturday, January 13, 2001 4:56 AM

The part that concerns me most is that I can imagine a Christian reading (and misinterpreting) that statement and thinking something in the line of:

"Just as I thought, atheists are just Satanists in disguise"

No. Satanists are atheists in disguise! Some also disguise themselves as demon worshippers, just to give the chills to certain Christians who take their religion way too seriously. (Demon worshippers, unlike Satanists, tend to believe in the existence of malevolent entities such as devils, demons, and a literal biblical Satan.)

The notion that Satanists believe in the existence of a literal or personal "Lucifer" is as mistaken as the notion that such an entity exists. I grew up with several kids who eventually because Satanists; all were flat-out atheists (strong atheists, asserting the nonexistence of both God and Satan). Today, I know several people who are Satanists, and these friends are likewise atheists.

Occasionally one will encounter someone who calls himself "a Satanist" and who talks as if a literal, personal "Satan" character actually exists. This person is either lying to you (bluff is not uncommon among Satanists, particularly when they're dealing with Christians) or that person is an oddball. To almost all the Satanists I've known (except one -- a severe nut case who was institutionalized shortly after I met him), no gods or devils exist: Satan is a metaphor for the self-ruling, self-indulgent Self. Most Satanists I've known would fit right in at any of the organized atheist or Humanist meetings or conventions that I've attended.

But go ahead and let the theists be wrong on this matter: I don't care! The Satanists have a point: Being a Christian of the busybody variety is, I think, a more fitting "punishment" than I could ever conjure!
 

Now, you raise a legitimate concern over the reputation of so-called regular atheists, and I have not adequately addressed this concern publicly (only privately, in response to private criticism of my "Ethics & the Æsthetic of Satan" column). Basically, I think that if atheists are going to demand that theists stop misunderstanding and misrepresenting atheism, we ought not repeat that very error by perpetrating myths about Satanism. If Satanists wish to bluff Christians about the true nature of Satanism, fine: that is their prerogative as Satanists. I'm not going to do this, though; I will be entirely up front with what I know about Satanism: Satanism is an entirely atheistic outlook, and Satanists (the Anton LaVey variety) are atheists in the same sense that you and I are atheists, and they are as materialistic as you or I.
 

I realize that this is not what you wrote, but it has been my experience that Christians often read what they want to read from a statement.

I rest my case that acting this way is a fitting "reward" for people who hold truthfulness in disregard, and who do this for the purpose of trying to convince others that their position is one of truthfulness. It is neither my desire nor my responsibility to "set them straight" on anything.
 

I have often been accused of Satanism after someone learns of my atheism; I have also been subjected to the ludicrous question "Are you atheist or Antichrist?"

Biblical Christianity encourages such black-and-white thinking. I do not encourage lying about Satanists in order to try to reduce this phenomenon, because nothing we do will change what the Bible teaches in this respect. So, we might as well be truthful, and let Bertrand Russell's aphorism do its job:

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." -- History of Western Philosophy

While I do not hold Satanism as any more or less abhorrent than any other superstition, I do feel that some Christians will try and hold this up as "evidence".

Satanism is more art and social commentary than anything else. It is not any more or less abhorrent than a Grandmaster Flash record is, when compared to a nightly newscast: both are styles of delivering information, making statements, and waxing artistic. Satanism is a social statement which happens to place a high value on artistic expression -- as well as on personal autonomy.

But to call Satanism a superstition is unfair, because Satanism contains none of the elements we commonly associate with superstitions. Superstition tends to submit to unseen "powers" whereas Satanism is about being in control of one's own life.
 

This morning I went to see the IT manager (a Christian) about some revisions I was planning to make to the software I am working on.

Be careful, lest their loyalty to the Christian faith override any sense of right and wrong.
 

I subsequently found out, from a co-worker and friend, that the very same Christian co-worker, who denied seeing the printouts, wasted no time in taking the material to her boss (I am a consultant, and he is my client), on the way showing it to my above mentioned friend with gleefully commenting "I wont judge him, because I know he is going to hell".

This Christian lied to you (lied to your face) and then betrayed you -- and you expect this person to give accurate reports on weightier matters?
 

She and others have often proselytized to me, even though I have never returned this lack of courtesy. I have always been friendly towards her, yet I now find myself without Internet privileges. Of course the official reason for this is "abuse of privileges", an allegation that is difficult to defend seeing that the material is considered personal.

Can you raise concerns about the fact that these people are proselytizing on the job? that you feel the need to study the works of atheistic activists in order to deal with this very tricky situation? Dig this: They are placing you on the spot when they proselytize on the job, because they (Christians) are in the majority and you are a despised minority. Any mistake on your part could cost you your job -- any mistake -- and there would be nothing you could do to defend yourself. Studying atheistic activism, particularly as we present it on Positive Atheism, might help you develop the insights necessary to deal with these people tactfully, so as to avoid the problems that always happen when Christians inflict their religion upon their co-workers.

Religious proselytization, when the proselytizer knows it's unwanted, and particularly when the proselytizer already knows that the victim holds specific views about religion, is humiliating, to say the least, and can be seen as a form of bigotry if the proselytizer persists in inflicting religion upon others. I covered this in the exchange with Cameron Pearl and in my most recent column, "When They Just Won't Quit."
 

The irony in the whole story is that I am one of the few people that did not make a fuss when she sent out her tracts via email, I guess it's because I enjoy a good laugh now and again :-), and that the person she sought to share her condemnation with is the only other person in the company that I know to be an atheist. I also now know that she hasn't the faintest idea what the words "to judge" mean.

Christians who act this way tend to know little if anything about being human. When you get this deep into the Christian faith, you tend to loathe your very humanity and "wait it out" until it's time to be "called home." Unfortunately, while they're still here, they tend to make things as rough as possible for the local citizens, those of us who call Earth our home and who treat our fellow inhabitants as if this life is our only crack at living.

Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
    people with no reason to believe

Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.