Looking At Some
De-Conversion Stories
Brian Marchand
From: "Brian Marchand"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:32 AM
I am probably in the vast minority when I say I am a theist who actually enjoyed browsing your web site. According to some of the de-conversion letters, I get the sense I am quite liberal in my approach to how religion can, and should, work in this world. I can only assume this comes from my largely non-religious upbringing. My father (Earthly, that is) is a "devout" atheist. Though he rejects the beliefs he was raised with, he never denounces the beliefs of others (even those of his "wayward" son) and is fond of saying "Thank God for religion. Without it, this world would be chaos." My mother has some belief in God, but does not worship in any way. I became a believer after 29 years of living by my own guidance. A life-shaking experience opened me to a sense of peace and grace I can only contribute to a divine, loving God. But I do stand firm that this is MY belief. I do not, in any way, feel that anyone else MUST see things as I do to be worthwhile (however, as a self-proclaimed budding evangelist, I WISH everyone did).
The reason I write to you is to voice an observation that struck me as I read the many de-conversion stories you have on your site, and I'd like to know your feelings on this. It seems to me that the vast majority of the atheists that wrote letters, and just about all I have met, have come out of very strict religious homes. I lost track of the score between Catholics and Baptists (along with other highly "fundamental" denominations). It truly disturbs me to see the evidence of what "hard-line" religion is doing to those who are starving to know more about their faith than what's on the surface. This is exactly what drove my father away from Christianity when he was attending a Jesuit school in Europe. The more we ignore and suppress the questions that lead to discovery, the more we breed a sense of deceit, secrecy, and doubt.
I am not saying Christians should ignore basic Biblical truths (as we see it anyway) to make it more comfortable for those who wish to belong to a religion while living a life contrary to what God asks of us. That is the other end of the Organized Religion spectrum-tell what they want to hear, just get 'em in the door. Columnist Tony Snow put it best this Saturday when he quoted Ambrose Bierce's definition of a Christian: "One who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin." I do find it troubling to read that some of your subscribers conclude that without God there is no sin. Right and wrong, good and evil still exist even in the absence of a divine Creator, and to suggest otherwise seems as ludicrous to me as a supreme being seems to many atheists. One of your writers even suggests that the only reason we have sin is because God created it. It's God's fault we get in trouble with Him. I wonder if this person would also agree that, assuming he has children, that it is his fault that his children ever broke a rule or ever got in trouble because he is the one who created those house rules in the first place. Contrary to popular child-rearing beliefs, any sensible parent sets rules and limits for his or her child. If that child breaks a rule, its not right to blame the parent. Rules are a part of life. Can we really blame the police officer for ticketing us when we get caught driving too fast?
What I do see from the majority of those who try to dismiss the existence of sin is a deep sense of guilt and shame. The story seems the same every time-I couldn't conform, I felt guilty and worthless because of it, so I ditched the source of guilt. Unfortunately, this seems to come primarily from the same fundamental religions I mentioned earlier. One of your writers said he knew he could never live up to the standards, so he left the faith. This misguided thinking comes right from the pulpit and Sunday School classroom of far too many churches. They miss the whole point of what the Bible says Jesus did for us. None of us are good enough. None of us are worthy of Heaven or of God's love. But none of that matters, as long as we believe that what the Bible says about Jesus is true. As Philip Yancy says many times in his book "What's So Amazing About Grace?": "We're all bastards, but God loves us anyway." Too many churches portray God as the jealous, vengeful tyrant so many of your writers talk about. As a new Christian coming in from a life without reason, I like to think of God as a love-sick Father, only wishing the best for His children, but not meddling in their affairs-unless we ask Him to. this may sound like a way to just fit God into my mold, but these are the things I find in the Bible when I approach it with an open mind and a lack of "out-of-the-can" religious bias. I am a Methodist, choosing the denomination because of its proud history of looking at God and the Bible with open, honest eyes. I only wish I could say all of Methodism still walked that path.
I suppose I have rambled on enough. Once I get going, it's tough to stop. I hope you don't see this letter as a salvo. I truly believe in freedom of, and even from, religion, as long as it's fair on both sides. We are all entitled to our beliefs. I would greatly appreciate your views on some of the issues I have raised here. Please feel free to reply. God bless all of you and good luck in your endeavors.
Brian Marchand
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Little River Business Solutions"
Subject: Re: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 10:29 AM
• Deconversion is Unique To Specific Varieties of Religious Experience
I suspect that if one goes online and solicits "De-Conversion Stories," one will not hear from very many people such as myself who were raised in an atheistic home whose roots were a blend of atheism and Deism (the "Spinoza's god" Unitarianism of the American Founders) for as many generations back as anybody can remember. Neither will one hear from someone who was raised in a rather liberal, vaguely religious home but later decided that the god-question was not worth pondering. The "De-Conversion Story" is an experience which is basically unique to those who once believed very devoutly, eventually woke up and realized what they were doing to themselves, and then did something to change the situation by reverting to atheism.
• Varieties of Nonreligious Inexperience
The vast majority of atheists, I think, simply don't buy what little they've considered. If they've heard very much (in man-hours), chances are it was that theologically narrow sliver of Christianity which monopolizes television and radio religion, a viewpont that more and more modern Americans find unsavory, cheerless, and most disagreeable, to say the least! Such atheists just don't think the god-question is of any importance.
Only if you approach them, explain that an atheist is simply one who lacks a god belief, not necessarily one who asserts that no gods exist, will such atheists think for a moment and say, "Yeah, if that's what an atheist is, then I guess I'm an atheist." We see this again and again, both as part of the Positive Atheism project as well as in the personal lives of various volunteers as they explain what they do to this or that friend or relative.
After hearing this explanation, they will usually go back to their doing and probably not think about it again unless asked. The subject might cross the minds of some when they notice something that appalls them (such as a pogrom or a lying preacher on TV or a priest who got caught fiddling around with the altar boy or an American President bent on funding religious "charities" with tax dollars -- but who gets caught secretly admitting that he's promoting faith-based "charities" only for the purpose of arming the anti-abortion movement with funding from the public treasury).
Such newsworthy events will be the only times that the vast majority of atheists think about religion (or atheism) at all. Most atheist rarely if ever think about their atheism, because most of us don't care about the subject of theism.
• Adjusting To Normalcy is Difficult: Help is as Unavailable as God
Many people who were trained in a religion at a very young age have a tough time shedding the fundamentalistic styles of thinking once they revert to atheism. This is sure to show in a collection of "De-Conversion Stories," and is, actually, one of several aspects we wish to examine in ourselves by participating in the "De-Conversion Stories" process. Trying to adjust to this often shocking and occasionally life-shattering experience is often very difficult -- there are no groups or psychological disciplines designed to help one come down from religion, so all we have is to work this out on our own. By offering the "De-Conversion Stories" pages, we can watch our own stumbling and bungling in others, and can also learn what to anticipate in our own journeys.
A few of us made this change quite gracefully, but these are a fortunate few. Most of our experiences were quite awkward, and many of us will never completely shed the vestigial fears which were hammered into us while we were vulnerable children who lacked the ability to critically examine what we were being enticed or coerced to believe.
Thank you for visiting our world for a few moments. Our hope is that by exposing yourself a little bit to who we are, perhaps you will better be able to identify and perhaps openly the slanderous stigma that we atheists endure whenever we make our views known to others.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "Little River Business Solutions"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: RE: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 3:25 PM
Cliff,
I whole-heartedly agree that there are many who were raised as atheists and are very content. I have no problem with that. My real issue, or beef, is with organized religion itself. I guess I focused on the issues in those letters that kept me away from Christianity for so long. In a sense, I was a budding atheist for quite a while. However, I suppose I never quit pondering the question. And for those who woke up one day and "realized what they were doing to themselves," there are always at least two roads to take in solving a problem, and I respect their decision to take the road of atheism, even if it's not the road I chose.
I do understand that atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, in fact I've had to make this distinction many times to my Christian friends. However, I believe that part of the problem for atheists is that there are many militant anti-God people who go to great lengths to squelch the voice and suppress the rights of those who do believe. I personally try not to associate these "anti-
I hope that my point earlier was not taken as an attack or smear upon you or other atheists. I do wish, and pray for the future, that the Church, as a whole, does a better job in shepherding their believers, as did the One we worship so many years ago, and abandons this hard-nosed judgmental attitude that leads to the claims of modern-day Phariseeism. And it is my prayer that all Christians come to understand and learn to work in harmony with those who believe differently, or not at all (and I say this from my heart, not to raise special-interest money).
Do take care and, again, God bless.
Brian Marchand
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Little River Business Solutions"
Subject: Re: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:27 AM
One of my hopes is that by displaying bigotry, we all can hone our skills at recognizing it. I repeatedly admit that this is why I post the letters of theistic bigots. One thing I am doing hearkens from former gay rights activist Luke Sissyfag, who said, "Make yourself the object of their bigotry" when explaining to radio talk show host Tom Leykis why he disrupted one of President Clinton's speeches while wearing a pink chiffon. By coding the e-mail links to <editor@positiveatheism.org> in such a way that I can tell which page a person clicked to open the e-mail, I have discovered the sad fact that most of these people appear never to have investigated beyond our front page before launching our salvoes against us. I have concluded, from this and from elsewhere, that I need do nothing more than identify myself as an atheist to become an object of bigotry and discrimination. They cannot get beyond the word atheism.
I realize that any effort to reduce -- or even to understand -- bigotry must begin by recognizing and confronting one's own tendencies toward bigotry. That is part of the unspoken point of our Forum in general and of the "De-Conversion Stories" section in particular: to display our own tendencies toward bigotry as a sub-section of the larger point which is to describe just how difficult is the process of renouncing one's previously-held faith. This is no easy deal, and if there were centers for helping people come down off of bad religion just like there are groups and businesses that will help you come down off drugs (another harrowing, often fundamentally life-changing experience), either this form would not be needed, or it would be so common that it would not have drawn your attention.
I will not tell you if I saw "an attack" or "a smear on atheists" in your first letter: how you felt about atheists was not the vector I focused on either while reading your letter or while composing my response. My appearance of being oblivious to this is deliberate: I wish to focus this dialogue in a specific direction because I feel this to be a wonderful opportunity for us all to learn a great lesson. So I limited my focus specifically to your questions about the "De-Conversion Stories" section, which is a unique animal that I can only begin to explain to myself -- much less to you. Unlike the "Singles Night On Wednesdays" at the Chinese bar where I sometimes drink, this concept is basically unprecedented: there are no rules either spoken or unspoken.
If you are interested in understanding or even reducing bigotry in this world, I would suggest you examine the following statement that you made:
"I do not, in any way, feel that anyone else MUST see things as I do to be worthwhile (however, as a self-proclaimed budding evangelist, I WISH everyone did)."
I never thought that everyone must or should become an atheist (and even downplayed this stated mission of the group to which I once belonged). However, I did once wish that everybody could see what I have seen.
I no longer think this way for several reasons.
(Today I am not nearly as sadistic as I was at that moment! Gaud for bid that anybody would have to walk in my shoes!)
First and foremost, I realize that even if the fierce and widespread bigotry against atheists were to suddenly vanish, being an atheist, in and of itself, can be very hard on a person: thinking for yourself; no afterlife; no "invisible friend" (which, for some and at times, means no friends period -- as all evangelists who emphasize the "invisible friend" line will more than gladly point out); few short-cut roads to "learning" things (resting on faith so you can move on, rather than leaving the question open); no artificial source of social contact (artificial in that it centers around an ideology -- which can, for some, mean no such source: none of my Christian friends remained friends after I left the Church in 1983; few of my Stepper friends remained friends after I left the Program; I am universally shunned now that I have successfully implemented European techniques of moderate drinking; none of the members of the organized atheist group stayed in touch after I was given the ol' nudge); I could go on. And I'm sure that a Christian can invert this list and describe the intrinsic hardships of being a Christian. (And anyone who has written a "De-Conversion Story" would be more than willing to help you with that project! Though not all of us sympathize like I do, we all know what it's like!).
Mostly, though, as polarized as we tend to get when "they" foster such an us-vs.-them mentality within the popular mind set, whipping their people into a frenzy and prompting them to come after us or slander us or marginalize our existence, I have trained myself to realize two things: First, most people are not among the meddling fundamentalists, and most importantly, that doesn't matter to me: what people believe is not my concern, it's how they behave. True, I'll oppose legislation such as President Bush and Al Gore have proposed, but that's in the public arena, and even were I still a Christian, I'd still oppose this legislation because I've always recognized that our best prospects for religious liberty come when the government takes a completely neutral stand on religion.
But as tempting as it is to react to the polarizing that we are, by default, a part of, there are steps I can take to keep from playing in to it. I'm not sure what all those steps are, at this point (the whole "Positive Atheism" thing is, and will always be, a learning experience -- and always merely one learning experience among many), but I am confident that I can learn and grow.
And if I document what I learn and share it with others, perhaps someone will be able to assemble some of what we've learned into a format that will be as easy to present as an hour-long workshop or a small book. That, basically, is what I'm doing here, though I cannot speak for any of our readers as to why they're here. The file "Religion Reporter Interviews Cliff: Why Do You Read PAM?" has a few clues, but we're all trying to do this thing called life and we each have limited and varied experiences and abilities with which to accomplish this thing called life.
What sets us apart, as far as I know, is that as far as we can tell, this is the only life we get; I cannot tell you if we're different from theists in any other respect. But if this is our only crack at existence, it makes no sense to make it needlessly hard on other people, seeing as how it's their only chance to live as well.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
"My conclusion is that there is no reason to
believe any of the dogmas of traditional
theology and, further, that there is no
reason to wish that they were true. Man,
in so far as he is not subject to natural
forces, is free to work out his own destiny.
The responsibility is his, and so is the
opportunity."
-- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970),
"Is There a God?" (1952)
"The legitimate powers of government extend
to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
"Statute for Religious Freedom"
From: "Little River Business Solutions"
To: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: RE: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:36 PM
Cliff,
It truly is a shame that bigotry even has to be an issue. I cringe when I hear some of my fellow Christians talk about others, even others in their own faith! I am so often tempted to ask if they ever once contemplated that the same God they claim as their creator also created everyone else. As Christians, we need to remember that Jesus sent his disciples to ALL the nations, not just the ones who "fit the mold." And it does not surprise me that most folks attack you and your group without taking the time to look at what you have to say. Granted, I spent most of my time reading the de-conversion stories, but I also read, and appreciated, the section outlining what your group believes. I had never considered the "soft" and "hard" definitions of atheism before. I found it very interesting.
I am glad to read that you were not focusing on any type of attack in my writing. Chalk it up to self-consciousness, but I have an innate fear of offending someone without meaning to. As far as understanding what those who de-convert go through, I can only relate through what I have heard from others who have struggled to give up a certain lifestyle (12-steppers, etc.). However I can see that this can be far worse on some. After all, we are talking about what these folks were taught to be their eternal existence after their Earthly one. As you mentioned, the thought of no after-life must be very disturbing to many who have come out of a deep-rooted faith. Eternal life is that carrot many churches hang in front of their faithful to keep them prodding along.
You mention faith as being "short-cut roads to learning things" and, for some, I agree. It is quite easy to say, "It was God's will" or "We shouldn't question what God does." I hope I never slip into that mold, especially with my children. I lead a small adult Sunday School class and often hear members say that they were always told never to question God. Getting mad at God was out of the question! You just trust, believe, and have faith. Those who do question are usually labeled as "weak in faith." This is coming from within our own ranks and it drives me crazy. I encourage these people to question things, look deeper, push for an answer, if one can be found. I remind them that questioning what is taught and preached, and even putting God Himself to the test, is biblical. Thinking for yourself is key to developing a strong foundation in any area, even Christianity. To me, faith is important, blind faith is reckless.
You also mention losing that "artificial source of social contact." It is quite amazing how a congregation can resemble a social club more than a gathering of worshipers. Groups are formed that are tight-knit and very tough to enter. Those who don't conform are quickly ostracized. And once you leave, you cease to exist. In my own church I have seen good people literally driven out by the attitudes of the congregational power-brokers. It saddens me because I know this is not what Jesus intended. Sometimes I wonder if the loss of this social contact may be a blessing instead of a burden.
This is the only "life" we have on this Earth. Christians are supposed to be blessings, not curses. Somewhere along the line, through pride and misguided interpretations, we lost that. As a Christian, I am sorry for that. I just hope that, through my small ministry, I can be an exception to the perceived rule, extending a hand of peace, grace, and cooperation to everyone regardless of who they are, where they're from, and what they believe. All of this has been said before with marginal results, but I am committed to rise above the expectations. I hope to remain a simple man of simple faith. I want to remember that Jesus told all of us to love others, ALL others, as we love ourselves. I admit that I am just a wretched sinner and I don't have all the answers, but that's ok. I, personally, do believe there is something else beyond us and that belief gives me hope and guides me to live a better life than the one I lived before I came to the faith. It causes me to love others, even those I may not like a whole lot. It convicts me to walk a straight path and live in peace with all around me. When my end comes, if I find that this faith has been a big lie, then so be it. I have lost nothing but gained a happy and peaceful life. Some may say that this is ignorance and living a lie. Well, ignorance is bliss, and I like bliss. And it's only living a lie if I know it's a lie. I don't know for sure-no one does. But I believe it's true, not because of what someone says or because it's written in some book, but because of what's in my heart. I'll still look for answers, that's my nature. But for now, that's good enough.
Cliff, I have rambled on and bent your cyber ear long enough. I do hope to hear from you again soon but I do acknowledge we all have busy schedules. I wish you all the best in all that you do. Should you ever need anything from the other side of the tracks, don't hesitate to ask. Peace and grace be with you always, and, as always, God bless you and your cause.
Brian Marchand
PS> I didn't notice the quotes at the bottom of your signature before. The one from Bertrand Russell is extremely profound. In all honesty, if my definition of "dogma" is correct, there is nothing in that statement that a Christian should object to. This may be my ignorance showing, but I believe God put us here with the power to guide our own destiny. We do have that power, as well as the responsibility. Where we may part ways is what the possible end results of our destiny may be.
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "Little River Business Solutions"
Subject: Re: WebMaster:_Positive_Atheism_Index
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001 3:08 AM
I will say that you seem representative of some very hopeful changes I see taking place in certain corners of Christianity. I am a supporter of the Center for Progressive Christianity and have threatened to join, except that I would never be able to agree with their theology. I can understand their wish to retain their "Christian" identity, even though many of them are panentheists. They have, however, placed us on their links page. We have also been endorsed by Chaplain Al Holm of An Interfaith Chapel of Common Sense Ministry.
We receive lots of taunts from fundamentalists who ask what good has atheism done or what good have atheists done. My inevitable question, even if I don't ask it directly, is, "What is good in religion that cannot be found outside of religion?" The point I try to make in this is that almost all the good we find in religion has an extra-religious source (that is to say, that even assuming the existence of God, all the real good that we see, all the morality, anyway, is of human origin). The Baptist religion of up until about twenty years ago is a vast improvement over the Presbyterianism of yore, and the Roman Catholic Church has bowed to cultural pressure and thereby made improvements that nobody can deny.
I am glad to read that you were not focusing on any type of attack in my writing.
I am finding that a lot of what passes for "harm done" is probably unintentional, but is, nevertheless, bona fide indignity. The reason it is unintentional, I fear, is because antiatheistic bigotry is so ingrained into our culture that, for the most part, not even atheists recognize it when it happens to them. Even when we do recognize it, we discover that by trying to address it (much less change it) we inflict a whole world of damage to our quest to live normal lives.
For example, for someone to announce to a known atheist that she or he is praying for their salvation is, in my opinion, flat-out bigotry. To cloak it in the context of the known atheist being ill and praying for that person's recovery is just plain rude, but is, I think, understandable. I would never tell a known Christian Science practitioner, "I hope your doctor brings you good news" (but I would support prosecuting the same person for allowing her child to die from medical negligence).
As Christians, we need to remember that Jesus sent his disciples to ALL the nations, not just the ones who "fit the mold."
Still, some think He sent them to administer love, while others think He sent them to set us straight.
You also mention losing that "artificial source of social contact." It is quite amazing how a congregation can resemble a social club more than a gathering of worshipers. Groups are formed that are tight-knit and very tough to enter. Those who don't conform are quickly ostracized. And once you leave, you cease to exist.
This is not unique to religious groups, I've even seen it in the atheist groups.
This is the only "life" we have on this Earth.
On this, everyone but the reincarnationists agree. So why is it that when people posit "another" life, this life so often seems to become cheapened? With atheism, there really is no excuse for cheapening life for any reason. To those who would question whether atheists have morals or would wonder how atheism could foster morals, this is my response. If morality equals obedience to a god, I am not sure I know whether even to call that morality. But if morality is trying to make this a better place for all of us to live, then being acutely aware that this is our only crack at living that we know of is, to me the strongest motive I can think of for doing good to your fellow-human and for refraining from doing harm.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.