Article On Scouting
Is Terribly Researched
John Bonner
From: "K and B"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 4:24 AM
Your article on Scouting is as terribly researched as it is written.
Scouting is "don't ask, don't tell" in ALL aspects. If a person is homosexual, he or she may become an adult leader so long as they do not discuss their sexuality within the context of Troop or Pack meetings, camping trips, etc. In other words, not around the boys. Conversely, heterosexuality is NOT to be discussed either.
Additionally, Scouting does not seek access to Public Schools for the purpose of recruiting members. No recruiting goes on in the School Setting unless a Pack seeks permission to open the school at night for a place to meet and sign boys who's parents bring them, of their own free will, to register. These parents are also taxpayers who keep the schools in operation. Typically a usage fee is paid to the school for recruitment night. Scouting does seek permission to distribute flyers to elementary age boys to invite them to attend a registration meeting, wherever that meeting may be held.
One question I have is this: why is it so very important to change the Boy Scouts of America? Do you feel threatened by a bunch of boys who meet in church basements and in the woods? A more appropriate and intellectual tact would be to start your own organization to demonstrate how popular an all-inclusive. Build an organization not to rival Scouting, but to beat the hell out of it. I suggest that atheists, homosexuals, etc are to lazy to form their own organization, or are afraid that their form of Scouting would not be nearly so popular. Prove us wrong.
John Bonner
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "K and B"
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 7:13 AM
Your slander of me and my article is typical of the lies that have come from the pro-Scouting camps during the course of my involvement with this issue (if indeed it was my article you read: you clicked the link from the Letters section, not the Articles section or my section). Scouting's supporters appear to get their information about Scouting's policies by reading each others' Letters to the Editor in the local paper rather than by checking with Headquarters.
Please read the manuals and guidelines, instead: The leniency practiced by a handful of troops is not the stated policy of the organization as a whole and is not the policy that the organization and her most vocal supporters are spending hundreds of thousands to defend court.
I followed closely Nancy Powell's suit to stop the Portland Public Schools from allowing recruiters to come to the schools and pitch Scouting to the kids during class time. Actually, I couldn't have avoided the case if I'd wanted to, because at the time I received visits from either Nancy or her father at least twice a week, often more.
The fact that the Schools prevailed in this lawsuit -- setting a precedent to allow this activity to continue unopposed throughout the nation -- speaks volumes about the depths to which Scouting's supporters will stoop. And the fact that most Letters to the Editor, most editorial columns, most broadcast monologues, and most calls to the talk shows misrepresented her suit as seeking to prevent the Scouts from using the building after hours shows only how thoroughly institutionalized support for the Scouts has become, in that the press couldn't even pull off making the public aware of what the case was even about, but misrepresented it up until the day of the hearing.
No. I will not sit still while a bigoted religious organization is allowed to pitch its hate-filled venom to seven- and eight-year-olds as a captive audience in our public schools.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
From: "K and B"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 1:06 PM
Dear Mr. Walker,
There was no slander in my letter to you. Please check the dictionary for the definition.
I am not "pro-Scouting" as you seem to think I am. I am more anti-people-forcing-their-will-upon-others. I did read your article (which I found while browsing a completely different issue) but there was no mail link directly from the article, so I linked back to your home page where I found your mail.
As for "checking the loacl letters to the editor", I did check National Scouting By Laws prior to responding to you. How typical of someone without moral character to assasinate that of another by suggesting their lack of self-education about a particular matter. You would have gotten a D+ in debate class for that one. In fact, please don't bother responding to this email if you are unable to debate the issue without whining like a child.
Scouting defends its policies because all organizations have the right to do so in a free America. Do you think that, for instance, that nudists should simply be able to change the swimsuit option at the YMCA just because they disagree with it? It's obvious that you fight against Boy Scout policies because you are jealous of the organization and are unable to start your own. In addition, I suggest that you hate Scouting simply because of their declaration of a duty to a higher being, which you are against. So, if you are against a higher being, everyone should be, right?
"Pitching" Scouting is not recruiting, it is requessting kids who may be interested, to go to another location, after school hours, to sign up. I believe that you have the definitions of pitching and recruiting mixed up. If they were recruiting during class, they would have applications with them for the boys to fill out on the spot. This they certainly do not do, regardless of who you are in contact with. She is not a good source to site either since she is obviously on your side. Neutral sources are much better.
"Hate filled venom" is a little strong. I hope that you regret saying that. In no instance is hate preached to children in any Scouting meeting. Perhaps you got Scouting confused with the skinheads - you seem to get alot of facts confused.
The amusing part is that you never once addressed my main point of starting your own organization. You hate Scouting so much you would rather see it destroyed rather than start an organization of your own to rival it. Your call the Scouts anger-spewing, but you appear to hold anger in your heart towards much more even than Scouting. Even Rodney King said "can't we all just try to get along?"
There once was a country that disallowed opinions and groups who differed from what it believed. Nazi Germany tried to suppress everyone's beliefs. Once a free people is disallowed to believe in what it wants, tyranny reigns. Of course, I believe you must think Nazi Germany was a good idea. After all, it was an atheist state.
Lighten up, its a big country - theres plenty of room here for everyon'e beliefs. You are much tooo filled with hate. Did something happen to you as a child? You seem to have "issues"
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "K and B"
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 6:21 PM
The amusing part is that you never once addressed my main point of starting your own organization. You hate Scouting so much you would rather see it destroyed rather than start an organization of your own to rival it.
If you will read my article, I clearly state that I am against Government support of a group that discriminates against atheist kids, teaching them that they cannot be good citizens unless they assent to the fictions of theism. I don't care if any rival organization takes its place, I just don't want to be part of a movement that discriminates against atheists, and by their insisting on the right to pitch Scouting in the schools, I become part of that movement. So, I am exercizing my rights as a citizen by objecting very vocally.
The amusing part is that hardly anybody who is pro-Scouting has bothered even to understand what my real position is: Scouting has the right to exist in it's current form as a private organization, but I will fight tooth and nail against any move to fund it or support it through Public means -- including recruitment of kids in the Public Schools during class time. The sad part is the pure slander that I've received for voicing my opinion -- particularly the seemingly deliberate misunderstanding of my true position, but also the popular move of not only misrepresenting what Scouting's position is, but then insisting that I am either mistaken or lying when I try to correct them on this misrepresentation.
And if you'll re-read my letter to you, you will see that I never called you "pro-Scouting," I only compared your rhetoric with that coming from the pro-Scouting camps -- but you want me to respect your critique of my other writings?
You've done a slick job of painting me with a broad brush, that's for sure. I'll bet you get lots of letters published in your local paper.
Lighten up, its a big country - theres plenty of room here for everyon'e beliefs. You are much tooo filled with hate. Did something happen to you as a child? You seem to have "issues"
Ay! A Twelve Stepper, too?
From: "K and B"
To: "Positive Atheism" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
Subject: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 1:14 PM
Cliff,
Did it ever occur to you that Scouts were supported in the case because a majority of Americans believe in their policies? This is, after all, a democracy, where the majority is suppose to hold sway. The great thing about our country is that people, like you, are allowed to disagree and have the right, as an American, to do so without fear of repression from the government.
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <editor@positiveatheism.org>
To: "K and B"
Cc: <abuse@stargate.net>
Subject: Re: Positive_Atheism_Letters_Section
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 6:25 PM
If you don't want me to write back to you, then please PLEASE stop writing to our domain!
We did not initiate this dialogue, you did.
The greatest thing about the country of which I am a citizen is that the "majority" is, by law, not allowed to exploit the government for the purpose of inflicting its religious views upon minorities. If the big guys feel that they just have to be heard one more time, then they must, by law, resort private means -- they cannot expect public schools and the like to give them a free ride.
Or have you not read the United States Constitution?
It is this aspect of Religious Liberty -- nowadays all but abolished by busybody fundamentalist Christians -- for which my country was once renowned.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
Five years of service to
people with no reason to believe
Material by Cliff Walker (including unsigned editorial commentary) is copyright ©1995-2006 by Cliff Walker. Each submission is copyrighted by its writer, who retains control of the work except that by submitting it to Positive Atheism, permission has been granted to use the material or an edited version: (1) on the Positive Atheism web site; (2) in Positive Atheism Magazine; (3) in subsequent works controlled by Cliff Walker or Positive Atheism Magazine (including published or posted compilations). Excerpts not exceeding 500 words are allowed provided the proper copyright notice is affixed. Other use requires permission; Positive Atheism will work to protect the rights of all who submit their writings to us.