God Always Existed;
Needed No Creator
I'm just wondering what your thoughts on this might be. Have you ever used the argument;
"If the Universe so complex as to require a creator, then logically the creator must be at least equally complex and thus require a creator."
only to be greeted by;
"Well, God always existed. That's why he doesn't need a creator."
I have no idea how one would counter this crazy argument. How could a sentient being just have always existed? It boggles the mind.
Thanks in advance,
From: "Positive Atheism Magazine" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: March 17, 2004 4:36 PM
If they are unwilling to explain the existence of their deity, then they have no business demanding of you to explain the existence of the Universe.
This is the bottom line: the rest of this is simply pondering along the same lines.
The Universe exists, this we know. Beyond that is only speculation. There may be a vast super-universe, amidst which ours is but a brief bubble (and there is nothing currently known in science to rule this out as a possibility). Then again, our Universe may be the whole banana within a vast Space. But to "see" much further than what we can currently see may require a particle accelerator the size of the orbit of Jupiter -- we don't know yet.
Your claims remain within the realm of demonstrable fact: "The Universe exists, and beyond this is mere speculation."
Their claims go beyond the realm of fact: "The Universe exists, and it was created by a deity."
Oh, really, now! Demonstrate to me the existence of your Deity without resorting to the existence of the Universe as part of your demonstration! Demonstrate to me the existence of your Deity independent of the existence of the Universe! In other words, explain the cause of your Deity rather than the effect of your Deity!
You demand that I explain to you the cause of the Universe but are unwilling to even entertain the cause of your explanation!
They don't really know whether or not their claim is truthful. So why assert it as truth? Why not simply admit that it's speculation and stop trying to sell on what you don't even know? Why do you expect us to believe what you tell us when you don't really believe it yourselves?
As Abraham Lincoln said,
It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
There are two things to remember when dealing with the god-question. First, demand that they describe for you precisely what they mean when they use the letter sequence g-o-d or utter the sound "gahd." Secondly, keep in mind that all they have is a claim -- a god-claim. Do not allow the conversation to degenerate into language that speaks of "God" as if She-He-It actually exists; do not let it go beyond the context of the god-claim. If you find yourself speaking about "God" as if She-He-It (pronounced as one syllable) is real rather than simply the object of their claim, then you allow them to trick you into placing yourself in a very compromised position. (This second one is a tough one to explain, so if you think you can explain it in simpler terms, by all means clue me in, okay?)
If you have any more questions, or if this misses anything you think you need, get back with me, okay?
Positive Atheism Magazine
Eight-and-one-half years of service to
people with no reason to believe