Nancy Powell's
appearance on
The Tom Leykis Show
March 31, 1998
transcribed by Cliff Walker

First Hour; First Segment

Tom: Seven minutes after the hour, thank you for tuning in to The Tom Leykis Show. This is where America gets together to talk about the issues you really care about. It's a different kind of radio talk program. We're the radio talk show that is not hosted by a right-wing wacko or a convicted felon. No! I am your host.

We've talked a lot about the Boy Scouts. I, personally, am on a campaign (again, personally on a campaign) to avoid the Boy Scouts in every possible way. I will not contribute money to the Boy Scouts, I will not donate my time to the Boy Scouts of America. I will not donate to the United Way, and the first reason I stopped donating was because of the United Way's attempts to discriminate against atheists, agnostics, gay men who want to be scoutmasters, what have you.

And I, for years, have been following the Boy Scouts' attempts to exclude certain people. Now, of course, you may know that recently, it was decided that the Boy Scouts of America have the right to discriminate against gays, against agnostics, against atheists: against anyone who won't take the oath, the Scout oath, the Scout pledge (or whatever it is).

Well, all right, so, pretty much, what you've done (whether the Boy Scouts of America want to be known as this or not), what you've done is you've pretty much defined the Boy Scouts as a religious organization.

So now, the other shoe has begun to drop. Now that the Boy Scouts have been "outed," now that they are out of the closet (they'll hate when I say that phrase), now that the Boy Scouts have been revealed to be what they are, now you're going to have people upset that this religious organization is going to public schools and recruiting.

That is exactly the situation in Portland, Oregon, and from Portland, at the studios of our affiliate in Portland, Hot Talk 1080 KOTK, is Nancy Powell. Nancy Powell, just recently, wanted to rock and roll with the Portland Public Schools. She filed a complaint with the State Superintendent in the State of Oregon regarding the Boy Scouts of America. (This story, by the way, was pointed out to us by the guy who runs the board for us at KOTK.) I am so thrilled; this is the first guest we've had from the studio of KOTK.

Nancy Powell, thanks for coming in.

Nancy: Thanks for having me. Hi Tom!

Tom: How are you doing?

Nancy: I'm as good as somebody who lost this week can be, how about you?

Tom: Pretty good. A little wet here in LA, but I'm doing okay. Alright, Nancy, tell us the deal. How did this whole thing start?

Nancy: Well, it started when my oldest child began school. He was a first-grader, six years old, and he brought home a flyer from the school that said, "Come join Boy Scouts, it's good fun!" And being an active atheist, I knew from the get-go that the Boy Scouts would not allow my child to join.

I went to the principal and I said, "I find these materials offensive, and I don't want my son to receive them any more." He agreed they wouldn't, and within a matter of about two weeks, I came to pick my son up from school one day, and he's wearing a non-removable wrist bracelet (like you might get at an amusement park; you can remove it by cutting it, but it's not removable by a 6-year-old), and he's just bouncing up and down and he says, "I'm going to be a Boy Scout," and "I'm going to get to earn badges," and "The (school officials) said it was a good thing," and "Mommy! Can I join? Can I join?"

So now, here I am explaining to my son, who is now sobbing and tears are running down his face, that no, Son, you cannot join, and it doesn't matter what the school official said because the Boy Scouts will not accept our kind. And that's a really terrible thing to have to explain; it was a life lesson I had hoped he would be much older before he would learn.

Tom: Now, who did you complain to first at the school in Portland?

Nancy: I first went to my principal, and I said, "This is wrong." We talked about it, and he said, "Well, it's District policy, there's nothing I can do about it." I took it to his boss. I then took it to the School Board. I gave them 20 weeks to make a decision, and they didn't make a decision in that period of time.

So I then took it to Norma Paulus, who is the State Superintendent of Public Education. I said this is a religious group: they have no business being in the schools, and the message they pass out is that religious children are, somehow, better citizens of the United States than atheist children are, and homosexual children are, or children of parents who are atheists or homosexuals.

I always say my 7-year-old son is no more an atheist than he is a Republican, I mean, he's 7 years old! These are concepts well beyond him, but these are our family values, and nobody has the right to say they are not as good as anybody else's.

Tom: Well, you went to the principal and, I guess, after you spoke to him, he thought it was over, and then you went to his boss, who is the Superintendent of Schools, in Portland?

Nancy: Well, yeah, we got there, anyway, right, the Superintendent of Portland Schools, and I went to a School Board meeting. They claimed they didn't know anything about it: "Gee, we don't know about this alleged discrimination" (this was the term they kept using). I kept giving them information, and they still kept referring to it as alleged discrimination. I don't know if they don't read newspapers, or what.

So finally I went to Norma Paulus and I just got the decision back last week, and the decision is: "We can discriminate against you all we want. The matter of fact is, if we tell the Boy Scouts they can't come in, during school hours, to recruit our children, we are infringing on their religious freedom."

Their religious freedom!?

My goodness! This is my public school! These are my children that are being told (by this group that, blatantly, are bigoted) that, somehow, they're not the quality of children that religious people are! And I'd like to point out that, unlike religious people, atheists don't hold any laws higher than the laws of their country. Religious people hold the laws of their religion first. So, how can I not be a better citizen?

Tom: Now, can the public schools bring any religious group in there? I mean, can any religious group come in a and start recruiting kids?

Nancy: Of course not! There is no other organization that's allowed to come in, that requires a test of faith, and rule after rule after rule defines that so clearly. We're not talking about complicated laws, we're talking about little "one-paragraphers" that say things like, "Any activities which exclude children based on race, religion, sexual orientation, ya-da-ya-da-ya, are not permitted in the schools."

We're not talking about an after-school equal-access issue, which is the red herring so many people bring up. I'm not talking about whether or not people can meet there when the kids aren't there, I am talking about aggressive solicitation and recruitment, in the schools, during school hours, to little children who cannot differentiate between endorsement and a self-invited guest.

Tom: Now, what is interesting about this is that you've been told "That's it. The Boy Scouts can come in, there's nothing that can be done about it." Can't this go further? Couldn't it go to -- I assume there's a State Supreme Court in Oregon? the U.S. Court of Appeals?

Nancy: Of course!

Tom: It can.

Nancy: Of course! This was only a battle; we certainly have not lost the war.

Tom: Are you taking this further?

Nancy: Oh, of course! Of course! As an advocate for my children (I'm an at-home Mom, Tom), I mean, what -- what can I do? Can I send my kids back to school -- Just yesterday! Just yesterday! Send them back! After this decision and Spring Break -- and say, regardless of what those people do down there, regardless of how they're going to treat you or how you feel, I'm not going to defend you and stick up for your rights? Heck, yes! I'm taking this further! That's my job!

Tom: Now, this story appeared in the Portland Oregonian, and we got it from AP, and so the story's starting to get around. Are the Public Schools commenting to anybody? They wouldn't come on today, I'll tell you that! They would not come on with us, they would not comment; all they did was send us the decision that was made by the schools. They would not come on and explain or discuss it in any way. People should know, we invited them on, we made a number of calls to the Portland Public Schools, nobody had the guts to come on and debate this issue.

Nancy: Oh, come on! They investigated their own claim and, surprise! They found themselves innocent!

Tom: Unbelievable!

Nancy: Yeah. It is.

Tom: Now, since this story came out, have you been approached by ACLU or any organization?

Nancy: I actually took the initiative some time ago and approached the ACLU. They have accepted my case and they are going to take it to lawyers' committee, just next week, to determine whether or not they have the resources to take this to court.

Tom: Just an amazing story. We'll take a break here, we'll come back. It's Nancy Powell. Nancy Powell does not want the Boy Scouts of America, a discriminatory religious organization, coming into public schools and recruiting children. Keep in mind, if you do not swear to perform duty to God ("Gahd-duh," as they like to say) in the Boy Scout oath, you can't be a Boy Scout.

So essentially, you have a religious organization, that discriminates, coming into the schools in Portland and recruiting children. Nancy Powell is an atheist and she says: "Er, no. No. You can't do that." What do you think?

First Hour; Second Segment

Tom: With us from Hot Talk 1080 KOTK in Portland is Nancy Powell, who is going after the Portland Public School System with both fists because they let the Boy Scouts of America in there to recruit. And the Boy Scouts are a (now we all know!) it's a religious organization.

Here's the Scout Oath, by the way, and this comes right out of the decision from the Portland Public Schools (this is all they sent us was their decision, they would not come on the program and discuss this), but here's the Scout Oath. the Scout Oath says: "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." So, there it is. "God" is in the second line of the Scout Oath, capital "G" by the way.

Let's go to your calls here at 1-800 5-800 TOM.

Let's say hello to Dan on a car phone, Dan you're on The Tom Leykis Show, hello!

Dan: I've got this kid, my boy, and I put him in Boy Scouts, and after this, I took him out. I couldn't handle it any more; this is a bunch of crap! They shouldn't discriminate against anybody in the Boy Scouts. I was a Boy Scout when I was a kid, if I'd have known this kind of crap, I wouldn't have been in it!

I've got a piece of property, I got a little chunk of land, I had a little pond on it, and my son's Scout troop used to go up there and camp on it. I took him out of Scouts, and the leader had the gall to call me about a week ago and ask me if they could come up and have a camp out on it. I told them, "Hell no!"

But, the religion crap, and all this other crap, it needed to go away. I'm supporting her a hundred percent.

Nancy: Thank you very much!

Tom: Now, Dan, You're in Portland. Are you going to do something about this?

Dan: I'm going to give -- I think I'll make my presence on a School Board meeting, or something, myself, and let my opinion be known.

Nancy: Go Dan!

Tom: I agree with you, too! Thanks, Dan!

It's Tommy, on The Tom Leykis Show. Hello.

Tommy: I was a Boy Scout, so I believe that the Boy Scouts can let in whoever they want, because they do have a set of laws --

Tom (interrupting): That's not what we're talking about.

Tommy: I know you're talking about how her son, you know, the problems that the schools --

Tom (interrupting): We're not talking about -- you know what, we already had that debate on the air, okay? And the courts have decided that for now, and that's that. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether a religious organization that discriminates should be allowed to get onto public school property and start recruiting children.

Tommy: Yeah, well I was leading to that, but I don't think --

Tom (interrupting): Well, we're not leading to it, that's the issue.

Tommy: Well, I don't think the Boy Scouts should be allowed there.

Tom: You don't think so.

Tommy: No I don't, because it's not -- it's not, like, a fair opportunity. I just don't think that they should be on the school, and I agree with this lady, who is just furious with the Boy Scouts.

Nancy: No, I'm furious with the schools.

Tommy: Oh.

Nancy: The Boy Scouts can be as narrow-minded and bigoted as they choose to be; I don't have a right to tell them how to lead their private organization. But boy gosh they'd better not get near me!

Tommy: Right. Okay. I just wanted to say that I agree with you, and I don't think they should be on the school.

Tom: Alright, Tommy, thanks for the call.

It's Steve on The Tom Leykis Show, with Nancy Powell from Portland. Hello.

Steve: I've got a couple of points to make, and let me preface it with saying that I was a Cub Scout and hated it, and I've got a daughter who was in Girl Scouts and they're just a big pain in the butt. So, I don't have any allegiance to either one of these.

But a couple of things: Nancy made a comment previously that you've decided that that's not what you believe, what your family believes. Well, much like Tom always says, "Why push a kid into religion? They don't understand it, don't force them into religion." I don't think we should force them away from it, either, just because he has to say allegiance to God to get into an organization. Maybe it's something your child ought to to think about and decide what he wants to do.

Nancy: How can a 6- or 7-year-old possibly comprehend a supernatural being? I think you -- you weren't in very close touch with your kids when they were 6 and 7 years old, because they just, they don't have the concepts to even be able to do that. That's what --

Steve: (interrupting): I agree with you. What I'm saying is, if they're not old enough to understand that it's there, they're not old enough to understand that it's not there. I mean, it doesn't -- I don't know if that makes sense or not, but pushing them into it and pushing them away from it is the same thing.

Nancy: No it isn't the same thing, let me tell you. When they come into the schools and they use school employees, it is an endorsement. When my little kids come home and they say "Teacher somebody said this" or "Principal somebody said this," they consider that a good thing.

We had an incident not too long ago here in Portland where they thought there was a theft at school, and a bunch of little girls were forced to pull their pants down. Do you know why those little girls pulled their pants down? Because the administrators told them to. That's the kind of authority administrators have. Had those teachers told my son to pull his pants down, he would have done that, too. When they told him to off--

Steve (interrupting): That's a different issue.

Nancy: When they told him to offer his arm for a wrist bracelet, he offered his arm for a wrist bracelet. It is the same thing as endorsing it.

When any adult volunteers for the Boy Scouts of America, they sign a "Declaration of Religious Principles" that says "No young man can grow into the best kind of American citizen (!) without first recognizing an obligation to God." And if you don't see why I find that offensive, I don't know what planet you're from.

Tom (after a pause): Thank you for the call, Steve.

Let's say hello to Andy, on a car phone. Andy, you're on The Tom Leykis Show with Nancy Powell.

Andy: I just wanted to take issue with this lady, you know? A lot of private organizations come into schools and they might not necessarily have the same views or beliefs as all the students do but the schools let them in, and, you know, --

Tom (interrupting): Is that so, Andy? So, let me ask you a question: If a group of Satanists were to come into a public school (because that is a religion, by the way), if a group of Satanists want to come into the school and start recruiting children, that would be okay with you?

Andy: Well, I mean, if they're going to do it for one, they should do it for all.

Tom: Alright, so, witches, warlocks, people who believe in who knows what kind of religious belief, baby killing, peyote smoking, it's all okay with you.

Andy: Well, I mean there's a fine line, --

Tom (interrupting): What do you mean, "there's a fine line"? Who's going to decide what a real religion is and what isn't? Who's going to decide that?

Andy: Oh, it isn't no --

Tom: What if Scientologists want to come into your school? is that okay?

Andy: It's all up to the individual --

Tom: Is that okay? If the Scientologists wanted to come in and recruit, would that be okay?

Andy: Well, I guess, but the kids --

Tom: What do you mean, you "guess"? Say yes or no!

Andy: Yes?

Tom: Yes.

Andy: I guess, --

Tom: You'd like to have Scientologists in the school.

Andy: Well, I mean, I don't even know what they're about. I know they charge a lot of money to be a part of it, but -- But you know, Tom, I was a Boy Scout for fifteen years, and, sure, we had our meetings at a church, but that's because it was free. But I never once, we never once were forced to pray or forced to go to church, and they never --

Tom (interrupting): You were forced to swear an oath to God! I have the oath right in front of me!

Andy: Well, in the military --

Tom: You were forced to swear an oath to God!

Andy: In the armed services, which is -- the United States, it's a country, it's a public, you know, it's paid by taxpayers, you swear to God!

Tom: You can't be forced to do it!

Nancy: That's right! Constitutionally, you are protected from having to say that.

Andy: Well, you know, it's just -- I think people are too sensitive nowadays about everything, any little thing, everyone has to take offense --

Nancy: Any little thing!? This is my --

Tom (responding simultaneously): The Boy Scouts --

Nancy: Oh, go ahead.

Tom: The Boy Scouts are insensitive when two kids who are atheists want to join the Boy Scouts. They're not sensitive by coming down on them like a ton of bricks with attorneys and courts and years and years in court. They're not sensitive, huh?

Andy: No, Tom, I think that all depends on the counsel and the leadership there. I grew up in Minnesota, and I think they're a little more liberal oriented, and they didn't really push the fact of the matter too much. They never really asked us what we did or what religion we belonged to. I never was approached by anyone. I think it all depends on the leaders --

Tom (interrupting): That's because you took the oath.

Andy: Yeah?

Tom: That's because you took the oath. Why would anybody approach you, for god sakes? More of Nancy Powell coming up from Hot Talk 1080 KOTK in Portland, more of your calls coming up as well.

First Hour; Third Segment

Tom: Twenty-five minutes before the hour with The Tom Leykis Show. We're here with Nancy Powell, a mother from Portland, Oregon. We are talking about her fight against the Portland Public School system. She's upset that the Boy Scouts of America are in those public schools protesting -- er, they are recruiting, they are not protesting, they are recruiting and she's protesting.

Amy, first-time caller to The Tom Leykis Show, hello.

Amy: I wanted to call and just let you know that I agree strongly. I, too, am a mother of a 7-year-old. The same situation happened to me with the Boy Scouts of America trying to recruit my son in school. I, unfortunately, as well as my husband were Wiccan, so we don't believe in the Christian god. But when we went to sign up (and unfortunately, I don't know a lot about the Boy Scouts of America), I went there dumbly, and tried to sign him up. When they asked me to sign the declaration that I did believe in the Christian god, and would be strongly involved --

Tom (interrupting): Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! The Christian god!? I thought it was just "Gahd."

Amy: Well, God. God is God.

Tom: Wait a minute: Now you're telling me that they were requiring that you sign up with the Christian god, not just "Gahd" the generic god.

Amy: Let's just say "God," okay?

Nancy: They'll take any old god.

Tom: They're like Alcoholics Anonymous: you can worship a doorknob as long as you say you'll perform your duty to "Gahd."

Amy: Exactly!

Tom: "Gahd" the doorknob!

Amy: Exactly! It's very hard to explain to a 7-year-old, when they come home, and their friends are all going, and they can't go because their parents can't be involved because of our religion. It's a hard situation to describe to a 7-year-old child, especially when you teach this person, my child, not to discriminate against anyone, whether it be race or size or hair color, whatever the case may be, and he has to come home and I have to describe this to him and explain to him what's going on, and he's still crying and he wants to go, but it's a matter of principle. So I do feel very strongly with you, Nancy, and I support you all the way.

Nancy: Thanks! Take it to your school board. Let other people know.

Amy: I sure will. I have!

Tom: Thanks, Amy! Sure appreciate the call.

It's Paul on a car phone. You're on The Tom Leykis Show with Nancy Powell. Hello.

Paul: I would say that your guest is un-American. I would say that based on the Pledge of Allegiance: "One nation under God" --

Tom (interrupting): Which, by the way, has only been in the Pledge of Allegiance since the 1950s, and was put in during the McCarthy Era. Do you know that?

Paul: I've heard that, and --

Tom (interrupting): Well, it's not just a rumor, Paul, it's not just a rumor. It's a fact.

Paul: Okay.

Tom: Ask your parents.

Paul: Okay. I'll do that. And, I'd also remind you that our currency states a belief in God.

Nancy: That's also a 1950s addition. Before that, it said "E PLURIBUS UNUM" and in the 1950s --

Paul (interrupting): Are you -- Are you -- Do you call yourself an American? Are you an American? Are those --

Nancy: I absolutely am!

Paul: -- in its' existence today. So, you don't say the creed?

Nancy: I don't say what?

Paul: You don't say, then, the creed?

Nancy: We do not say, "One nation under God," we say, "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Paul: Okay, so you're not an American.

Nancy: I absolutely am!

Paul: You don't say the American creed! The American creed includes --

Tom (interrupting): Well, it's called the "Pledge of Allegiance"; I don't know where you get this term "creed," Paul. But I'll tell you, I go a step further: I do not say the Pledge of Allegiance, and will not. And I will not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, by the way.

Nancy: Hey! I'll tell you a story. Just last week --

Paul (interrupting): Then, I would say you're not an American.

Tom: Paul? I have my passport right here that would disagree with you. I am an American!

Paul: Well, this nation --

Tom (interrupting): By definition I'm an American! You show me where in the Constitution (and I'm listening for your specific answer), you show me where in the Constitution it says that I have to believe in God to be an American.

Paul: I would agree, the Constitution does not --

Tom (interrupting): Nowhere in the laws of this country does it say that you have to submit to a deity to be an American. You moron!

Paul: However --

Tom (interrupting): How dare you call here and say that people who don't submit to "Gahd" are not American.

Paul: Okay. And I guess I'd make one other point --

Tom (interrupting): No, no, no! Answer what -- No! You're not going to make another point until you answer that question!

Paul: I agree that it is not in any --

Tom: Then, who do you think you are, calling here and saying that someone's not an American because they don't believe in God?

Paul: Well, I would point out that --

Tom: Who do you think you are, calling a radio show and telling someone --

Paul: I'm an American who believes in God.

Tom: Fine, but everybody doesn't, and there is nowhere in the law, nowhere in the Declaration of Independence, nowhere in the Constitution, nowhere that it says that you have to believe in God to be an American, does it?

Paul: Well, er, again, I would --

Tom (interrupting): So, when you called this radio program and told our guest --

Paul (still speaking): [unintelligible]

Tom: When you called this --

Paul (still speaking): -- that many young people --

Tom: Shut up! You shut up! I'm putting you on hold!

When you called this radio program, and you told our guest that she's not an American because she doesn't believe in God, you were lying, weren't you?

Paul: I don't see it that way.

Tom: What do you mean, you don't see it that way? Then, prove it! I want you to prove that there is a requirement to believe in God to be an American!

I'm listening.

Paul: Again, I would point out --

Tom (interrupting): Prove it!

Paul (still speaking): -- the currency, I would point out --

Tom: No! That is not -- the currency doesn't tell you anything! I want you to show me where it says, --

Paul (still speaking): -- I would point out the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States --

Tom (still speaking): -- in the laws of America -- How did I get a passport?

Paul: Er, you applied for one, --

Tom: How did I get it?

Paul (still speaking): -- and you were given one.

Tom: But if I'm not an American,

Paul (still speaking): -- Just because you

Tom (shouting): If I'm not an American, how did I get a passport?

Paul: Just because --

Tom: If I am not an American -- Answer that question! If I am not an American, how -- Are we giving passports out to anybody? Anybody who applies? If I'm Mexican, can I get an American passport? If I'm from Zimbabwe, can I get an American passport?

Paul: You know the answer to that is no.

Tom: The answer is no. How did I get a passport if I'm not an American?

Paul: You applied as a citizen, and --

Tom: I am -- No, no! -- I am --

Paul (interrupting): That does not make you an American!

Tom (still speaking): -- I am a citizen of the United States, you jerk! I am a citizen! You're an idiot! I am a citizen of the United States, and I want you to prove I'm not.

Paul: Well, that would again --

Tom: Prove it!

Paul (still speaking): -- again --

Tom: Prove it!

Paul (still speaking): -- again, I would point out the Pledge of Allegiance. You are unwilling to say that

Tom: Prove it!

Paul (still speaking): -- you are unwilling to pledge your allegiance --

Tom: Prove -- I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance. I want you to show me the law that says I have to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Paul: Uh --

Tom: Where is that documented? I want to know. I want to look that up.

Paul: Yeah, I'm not aware of any laws --

Tom: Okay, so there's no law (let me understand), there is no law that says I have to say the Pledge of Allegiance, --

Paul (interrupting): -- it's a voluntary --

Tom (still speaking): -- there is no law that says I have to believe in God, --

Paul (interrupting): -- it's a voluntary --

Tom (still speaking): -- there is nothing in the Constitution, --

Paul (interrupting): -- it's a voluntary act --

Tom (still speaking): -- but you, yourself, you moron! You, calling in here -- You call in here, and you tell me I'm not an American, my guest is not an American -- Who do you think you are?

Nancy: A Boy Scout!

Paul: I have my opinion, and I have a right --

Tom: It's your opinion! That's right! And do you know what it's worth? I'll tell you what it's worth:

Sound Effect: [Explosion. Tom "blows up" certain callers.]

Tom: More of Nancy Powell is coming up!

First Hour; Fourth Segment

Tom: A discriminatory religious organization wants to come into the schools (and has been doing it for a long time), and recruit kids, then tells certain kids they can't be in. It's outrageous!

Let's say hello here to Dave, first-time caller to The Tom Leykis Show. Hello.

Dave: I was in a very similar boat, I'm also out here in Portland (actually, Cornelius, which is a little suburb), and I'm the PTA President and also the Site Council President at our local elementary school.

The Boy Scouts wanted to come into our school to give a little presentation (we had the coming back to school night), which I didn't have much of a problem with. I said, "Well, as part of it, can I speak also?" and they asked me, "What would you like to talk about?" I said, "Volunteerism, ethics, and so on," and they said, "Oh, great! No problem!"

And they asked me if I'd like to say a little prayer before they started. And I told them, "Well, I can't do that." And they asked me why, with a puzzled look. I said, "Well, I'm an atheist."

Immediately, the man's face went white. He said, "Oh, well, then, you can't talk. You can't talk to our children!" I go, "Well, why not?" and they go, "Well, we don't allow atheists to talk to our children." I said, "Well, then, I don't allow Boy Scouts to talk at our school."

And then there was a big fight; they tried to basically force their way into the school. Well (being that, our local little school we have, the PTA controls a lot of the money and also a lot of the power), basically we got to beat the Boy Scouts in this circumstance because we said, "You don't let us have equal time, you don't come into the school." So we banned them from any participation in the school whatsoever.

Nancy: Good for you!

Dave: That's what I would suggest to you, is, each school has their little Site Council teams. Those are elected people, and the PTA usually elects them. If you can get in to those people, the District might tell you no, but those little Site Councils can keep anybody out of that school they want to.

Nancy: Unfortunately, in our school, they were overrun by the principal and by the District, who said, Nope! Nope! In fact, you have to let these bigoted people in and you have to give them unlimited exposure to the children during school hours.

Dave: Well, I will be at our School Board meeting, that we have tonight. And I'll also (maybe just for the heck of it) talk to our local School Board meeting, and see if I can do a crossover and get something going to where we can, kind of, get something going together. To me, this is the most outrageous thing where a group can come in and dictate, saying that we have the religious freedom to come into your school and recruit your children, and then turn around and find out that your child is an atheist (or your parents are atheists), recruit you, and then say, "By the way, you're of low moral fiber because you don't believe in God," and kick you out before they even let you in. It's the most outrageous thing.

And I guess that makes me -- I'm in the same boat as you two. I'm also an "un-American," I guess, which, I served in the Navy and was in Lybia and have my passport, but I guess I'm un-American --

Tom (mocking previous caller): You're not a citizen, Dave!

Dave: No, I must not be a citizen, because, heck! I don't believe in God, thank God! But I definitely believe in what you're doing and if you need any help fighting that fight, I'd definitely be one of those people who would help you, because it's the most outrageous thing that these people can do this: to be absolute, hard-core bigots, and then turn around and say, "But we want rights."

Tom: Dave, thank you for the call, we appreciate it.

This is Milo, on a car phone, you're on The Tom Leykis Show with our guest, Nancy Powell. Hello.

Milo: I just want to state that, first off, it doesn't make anybody an "un-American" that they don't believe in a certain god or whatever religion that you want to think that they believe in.

I do have a problem with the fact that when another caller stated before that a child should not be forced to decide what they want to do, based on their parents' religious beliefs. That's my main --

Tom: Unless they are Christians, or Jews, or Mormons, --

Milo: No! That has nothing to do with that, --

Tom: Ah!

Milo: I'm saying that they should be able to -- I know that there is an age that you have to protect your children at, but they should still be able to have a right to do something, unless --

Tom: So, you don't think, then, that anybody should be baptized, I imagine.

Nancy: Or go to Sunday school.

Milo: I'm sorry, say it again?

Tom: So, you don't believe in Sunday school, or baptisms, or any of that stuff. No Communions or confirmations, no Bar Mitzvahs, right?

Milo: Well, I believe in that!

Tom: Oh-h-h! So let me understand: It's perfectly okay to shove these concepts down the kid's throat if you believe in "Gahd," but not if you don't.

Milo: No. I believe that an atheist has the same rights that anybody else has.

Tom: Oh, but you just said, you just said it's wrong to tell your kid, "Hey, we're atheists in this house," and to have him behave as an atheist, but if your kids are Jewish or Lutheran (or you are), it's okay to shove your religion down their throat.

Milo: No. I don't think the Boy Scouts should shove any religion --

Tom (interrupting): No! You're talking about parents.

Milo: Okay. No, I don't think anything should be --

Sound: [Milo fades amidst phone static of the digital variety]

Tom: Alright, C-3PO, thanks! Another digital cellular call, there. It's wonderful. It's nine minutes before the hour, my name is Tom Leykis.

First Hour; Fifth Segment

Tom: Five minutes before the hour on The Tom Leykis Show.

Cindy, you're on The Tom Leykis Show, hello!

Cindy: I just wanted to call in and thank Nancy, and perhaps you need to really find another organization that would allow your son to --

Tom (interrupting): She's not trying to get her son into the Boy Scouts; she's trying to keep the Boy Scouts out of the Public Schools.

Cindy (still talking): -- a different one. And also -- and what I wanted to --

Tom (interrupting): Wait, wait! Did you hear what I just said?

Cindy: Yes, she's trying to keep the Boy Scouts out --

Tom: She's not looking for another organization for her son to join, she's trying to keep the Boy Scouts out of the schools.

Cindy: Okay. And --

Tom: You -- er, I mean, I guess you didn't hear the show.

Cindy: You know what? You don't let people talk.

Tom: Don't tell me how to do the show. I've been doing this, now, for 19 years, and I don't need your advice, okay?

Cindy: Can I make my point?

Tom: You can make your point if it's based on what we're talking about. Now, Nancy Powell at no time during this hour said that she wants her son to be able to join the Boy Scouts.

Cindy: Yes, and --

Tom: She said she wants the Boy Scouts out of the public schools. Do you understand that?

Cindy: Yes.

Tom: Alright, so finding another organization is not her problem.

Cindy: Okay. It was just a personal comment to Nancy --

Tom (shouting): She's not looking for an organization! You're a complete, bleedin' moron!

Cindy: I understand that she's not --

Tom (shouting): Then why are you telling her to find another organization?

Cindy: Because I feel for children.

Tom: But the point -- she's not looking for an organization!

Nancy: So, what are you saying, ma'am? that no matter how many atheist children are hurt by this, as long as majority of the Judaeo-Christian world benefits, that we can just crap on anybody who is a minority? Is that your principle?

Cindy: Oh, no. What I'm saying also is that the public school system, itself, preaches atheism. So, they, themselves, --

Tom: Really? Be specific. What classes are teaching that, and specifically where?

Cindy: Oh, when they teach evolution as the only form --

Tom: Who is doing that, specifically?

Cindy: Oh, the entire public school system.

Tom: Really? Name a school. Name a class, name a teacher.

Cindy: Oh, all of them.

Tom: All of them.

Cindy: I came from Pennsylvania --

Tom (interrupting): Really! All of them, huh?

Cindy (still talking): -- High School, and Mr. S., in the science class.

Tom: Mr. S.?

Cindy: Mr. [unintelligible].

Tom: Un-huh.

Nancy: I will tell you that here in Portland, we teach evolution as fact. Hello! It is fact.

Cindy: You know what? You need to find a book by Rice (I'm forgetting his first initials), he did The Origin of Species Revisited. He took it before the Supreme Court, and what he did is he went into every science, to all of the thoughts of what --

Tom (interrupting): We are not here to debate -- Look! We are not here to debate evolution.

Cindy: No. You're here to bash Christians, and to bash --

Tom: No, we're here to say that the Boy Scouts of America don't belong in public schools. They are a religious organization, and we have separation of church and state. End of story.

Cindy: Well, you know, you need to quit teaching evolution in the schools --

Tom: I see. That's enough! Thanks!

It's Josh, on The Tom Leykis Show with Nancy Powell, we've got about a minute, Josh.

Josh: I just gotta say I got three gods and three devils -- actually, tow devils. I got you (in no particular order), Howard Stern, and Jonathan Bremmer. My two devils are, of course, Dr. Laura and Rush Limbaugh.

Tom: There you go!

Josh: And at the end of this call, I'd like you to blow me up, if you would.

Tom: Of course.

Josh: Okay, I totally agree with her. I hate all these people who just go around preaching God. I'm not, myself, an atheist. I don't believe in any god (I'm actually 14, I told your screener I was 18), but I'm waiting till I've seen everything, I'm --

Tom: You would have gotten on anyway, by the way.

Josh: Okay, well, I didn't know. I just didn't want to take my chances. Anyway, I'm particularly driven towards Jehovah's Witnesses because I find that they (the ones that I know) don't force themselves upon me. I've heard of other ones doing that, and I don't find that right. But, they do have very good views, and they're morally correct and --

Tom: Ten seconds!

Josh: Okay. I love you, Tom! You're alright. You're totally right.

Tom: Josh, you asked me to blow you up.

Josh: Thank you.

Sound Effect: [Explosion.]

Alt Tag Gag